Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[WillBrink]

I agree on all three points. Especially the distortion, and lower dynamic range. I think it makes sound more natural since it's closer to the dynamic range we hear in real life. The masking of detail makes the music sound better.

Not for me it doesn't. Give me all the detail the gear can deliver all things being equal.

 

[levimax]

Yes!

But for best results, you should still use c and r loading to get an overall flattish response, ( say +/- 6db ? ) so you can keep the filters relatively mild...

A filter is a filter so I don't think it matters much if it is an electrical L C filter or a digital FIR filter. I like to go with a standard 47 K and short leads with low capacitance and then use EQ to adjust. That way I only change one thing when changing carts. Most decent MM carts are pretty good with standard loading (especially low Capacitance) and of course MC carts are pretty much impossible to change the FR with loading. I understand the "sport" thing but I find a nice FR really helps a Cart/Stylus sound as good as it can and it can really level the field between carts. Better ones still have lower distortion though.

 

[dlaloum]

A filter is a filter so I don't think it matters much if it is an electrical L C filter or a digital FIR filter. I like to go with a standard 47 K and short leads with low capacitance and then use EQ to adjust. That way I only change one thing when changing carts. Most decent MM carts are pretty good with standard loading (especially low Capacitance) and of course MC carts are pretty much impossible to change the FR with loading. I understand the "sport" thing but I find a nice FR really helps a Cart/Stylus sound as good as it can and it can really level the field between carts. Better ones still have lower distortion though.

Lower distortion (stepping away from the F/R focus) is achieved through having the lowest possible effective mass - which is 90% in the cantilever, and then the stylus shape... MicroLine / SAS / Namiki / FrtizGeiger - the most extreme shapes with the narrowest side patch and longest vertical give the lowest distortion (obviously when correctly geometrically aligned!) - second tier line contact types include HyperElipticals, Shibata, elipticals can be very good, but have a short lifetime, and only the very best elipticals get close to what a second tier line contact can do.

Sadly, optimal performance on standard stylus types, was always achieved using hollow tube cantilevers, and these are no longer made. - All cantilevers currently available are solid rods. (with the exception of the most basic aluminium types)
Exceptions until recently included things like the Dynavector Karat - which achieved low effective mass, by having a cantilever 1/3 to 1/4 the length of standard ones... it has now sadly been discontinued .

Even very good exotic rod cantilevers like the Jico SAS, can end up with sufficient effective mass to resonate within the audible range (between 14kHz and 16kHz for the SAS). Some of the very best aluminium cantilevers (Stanton) - achieved a lower effective mass than that, with resonance being pushed out to around 19kHz.

The Shure V15V Beryllium tube cantilevers had their resonance at around 32kHz, Dynavector Karat at 50Khz, Technics EPC100 was apparently over 70kHz...

That's why these cartridges could achieve low distortion as well as neutral frequency response within the audible range.

 

[dlaloum]

A filter is a filter so I don't think it matters much if it is an electrical L C filter or a digital FIR filter. I like to go with a standard 47 K and short leads with low capacitance and then use EQ to adjust. That way I only change one thing when changing carts. Most decent MM carts are pretty good with standard loading (especially low Capacitance) and of course MC carts are pretty much impossible to change the FR with loading. I understand the "sport" thing but I find a nice FR really helps a Cart/Stylus sound as good as it can and it can really level the field between carts. Better ones still have lower distortion though.

Another point I have not mentioned earlier - most of the non linearities in stylus/cartridge response are minimum phase... as is the analog filter created by C / R loading and the cartridge inductance.

As long as your digital (or analogue ) filters are minimum phase, you will simultaneously correct phase anomalies as well as frequency anomalies.

If you use linear phase filters, you seperate phase from frequency... and then you may get a flat frequency response, but will not get a result that is correct in terms of phase/timing.

And yes these are the same issues that we all grapple with in speakers!!!

So yes, by all means EQ digitally, but for this purpose, use minimum phase for best results. (academically speaking, then there is the discussion of whether phase is audible, and how much phase variance is required to make it audible...)

 

[JP]

Technics EPC100

The MK4 version. You'll recognize some of this list:

Phono Cartridge Equivalent/Effective Tip Mass Master List

Dropping this here to get it off my desktop. The original list was posted on VE IIRC, though I've added a lot to it. All the original numbers were three decimals though I've never seen a manufacturer spec more than two, so I assume that was the original author's addition, likely for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Holmz]

I think where things go wrong is the company relocating to the cheaper labor location fail to properly train the workers before starting production. If the product is essential to living - not cartridges obviously - then regional manufacturing is best. That way if something goes wrong at one location the entire world doesn't get screwed.

FCS it is so bad in Australia they canogften not even run an f’en slaughterhouse.

On the back of the Woolworths and Coles chicken it says packaged in China. It is literally cheaper to boat it over to have it put on a styrofoam tray with saran-wrap and send it back.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Lower distortion (stepping away from the F/R focus) is achieved through having the lowest possible effective mass - which is 90% in the cantilever, and then the stylus shape... MicroLine / SAS / Namiki / FrtizGeiger - the most extreme shapes with the narrowest side patch and longest vertical give the lowest distortion (obviously when correctly geometrically aligned!) - second tier line contact types include HyperElipticals, Shibata, elipticals can be very good, but have a short lifetime, and only the very best elipticals get close to what a second tier line contact can do.

Sadly, optimal performance on standard stylus types, was always achieved using hollow tube cantilevers, and these are no longer made. - All cantilevers currently available are solid rods. (with the exception of the most basic aluminium types)
Exceptions until recently included things like the Dynavector Karat - which achieved low effective mass, by having a cantilever 1/3 to 1/4 the length of standard ones... it has now sadly been discontinued .

Even very good exotic rod cantilevers like the Jico SAS, can end up with sufficient effective mass to resonate within the audible range (between 14kHz and 16kHz for the SAS). Some of the very best aluminium cantilevers (Stanton) - achieved a lower effective mass than that, with resonance being pushed out to around 19kHz.

The Shure V15V Beryllium tube cantilevers had their resonance at around 32kHz, Dynavector Karat at 50Khz, Technics EPC100 was apparently over 70kHz...

That's why these cartridges could achieve low distortion as well as neutral frequency response within the audible range.

Perhaps the "basic" aluminum pipe in the Hana EL, EH, SL, SH, ML, MH is part of the reason they sound so good.

 

[dlaloum]

Perhaps the "basic" aluminum pipe in the Hana EL, EH, SL, SH, ML, MH is part of the reason they sound so good.

View attachment 263983

You would need to measure it and find the resonant frequency of the cantilever - it shows up both on frequency response and on distortion measurements.

Best way is to "expose" non linearity, by deducting modelled electrical response of the LCR circuit, from the measured response of the cartridge - that then leaves you with whatever forms of distortion/resonance/etc... that the cartridge had - the resonance frequency is then highly visible (big peak!).

An exemplary ultra light aluminium cantilever will get you 19kHz (never seen one get above that!)
A good one will get circa 14kHz
Average plunkers may have resonance down around 8 to 10 kHz

Massive DJ cantilevers will get even lower than that.

So Aluminium cantilevers range from around 8khz to 19kHz
Exotic solid rod cantilevers (Boron, Beryllium, Ruby, Saphire, etc...) will range from 14kHz to the low 20's KHz
Exotic Tube/Pipe cantilevers will range from 20kHz up to 70khz

Higher is better - and you really cannot achieve neutrality up to 20kHz without a cantilever resonance that is over 30kHz (preferably over 50kHz)

Often the reason people like the "sound" or "voicing" of a cartridge, is the rising high end (caused by the resonanc of the cantilever) - which accentuates some of the fine detail in the 15kHz to 20kHz range, that we often don't hear.... so psycho-acoustically, we are suddenly hearing details we never heard before !! (we can EQ to achieve the same effect....)

 

[Bob from Florida]

You would need to measure it and find the resonant frequency of the cantilever - it shows up both on frequency response and on distortion measurements.

Best way is to "expose" non linearity, by deducting modelled electrical response of the LCR circuit, from the measured response of the cartridge - that then leaves you with whatever forms of distortion/resonance/etc... that the cartridge had - the resonance frequency is then highly visible (big peak!).

An exemplary ultra light aluminium cantilever will get you 19kHz (never seen one get above that!)
A good one will get circa 14kHz
Average plunkers may have resonance down around 8 to 10 kHz

Massive DJ cantilevers will get even lower than that.

So Aluminium cantilevers range from around 8khz to 19kHz
Exotic solid rod cantilevers (Boron, Beryllium, Ruby, Saphire, etc...) will range from 14kHz to the low 20's KHz
Exotic Tube/Pipe cantilevers will range from 20kHz up to 70khz

Higher is better - and you really cannot achieve neutrality up to 20kHz without a cantilever resonance that is over 30kHz (preferably over 50kHz)

Often the reason people like the "sound" or "voicing" of a cartridge, is the rising high end (caused by the resonanc of the cantilever) - which accentuates some of the fine detail in the 15kHz to 20kHz range, that we often don't hear.... so psycho-acoustically, we are suddenly hearing details we never heard before !! (we can EQ to achieve the same effect....)

My Lyra Parnassus has a ceramic aluminum cantilever. I wonder where that lands in the grand scheme of things. BTW, one of the reasons I like the Hana is it is not hyper peaky to my ears. I don’t get tired of listening whereas the Parnassus gets to you after awhile with less than stellar recordings.

 

[levimax]

@dlaloum and @Bob from Florida

Come on over to @JP thread and load up the measurement script and learn once and for all how exactly your different carts / TT are performing. Instead of semi guessing you will see it and know it and you can compare to others. I think it facinating and fun.

Phono Cartridge Response Measurement Script

This script is the best! It is now easier to test, diagnose, and fix TT performance than ever before ..... and it's free! Thank you! It is probably easier for me because I use an ADC and digital RIAA so sampling and correcting become trivial compared to messing around with scopes and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Frank Dernie]

I can force mine down a few millimeters, but when I let go it just returns to its resting position without oscillation.

Yours must have more damping then. For a dynamic system to have no oscillation after a step input the damping has to be ≥ critical, which is quite high.
Theoretically in use a record player should not get step inputs so having a low damping suspension reduces coupling at higher frequencies, but footfall on flexible floors and handling will lead to oscillation, which isn't a problem for the intended function of playing records but may be if there are lots of activities (or dancing) going on!

 

[Frank Dernie]

Vibrations from where the TT is placed. Yes, they will have a much smaller amplitude but keep in mind that the modulation in the groove is very tiny as well (talking μm).

He just put his finger on top of platter, pushed it down and let go.

The best isolation comes from least damping but just moving the arm of an exceptionally well isolated TT can feel weird, and some people hate it so much, and use static thinking for a dynamic system so are against it regardless.

People are familiar with car systems and reducing body movement at low (ie handling) frequencies short circuits the suspension at higher (ie ride) frequencies. All sorts of damper blow-off valves and bypasses are used to mitigate the effects but basically the more damping the worse the isolation, so on my TT I am not surprised or bothered by oscillation at the sub-sonic suspension frequency (about 5Hz for mine)
If the suspension has a higher natural frequency lots of damping is needed to prevent audio output when it is excited so whether oscillation is good or bad is design dependant.

What gives the best isolation isn't necessarily popular with users.

 

[dlaloum]

My Lyra Parnassus has a ceramic aluminum cantilever. I wonder where that lands in the grand scheme of things. BTW, one of the reasons I like the Hana is it is not hyper peaky to my ears. I don’t get tired of listening whereas the Parnassus gets to you after awhile with less than stellar recordings.

Would be interesting getting some measurements...

 

[DSJR]

That's all great and frankly rather obvious. What we were talking about was the results from the one specific review that @DSJR linked to. Those were done at 47k with unknown Cl, and those are the results my comment was about.

Here are some more Shure data points - the cartridge body used is a 1000e - one of the p-mount variants of the M97x - in this case tested at 130pf, with a Jico SAS stylus, at a range of differing R loads.

The "simple" lines are the electrically modelled response, that one should get in a "perfect" world (ie: where the mechanical/magnetic mechanism was perfectly linear...) - which provides insight into the level of "imperfection" in the transducer itself!

View attachment 263929

For the M97xE you can get closer to a neutral response, by using a high-ish C loading, combined with a high-ish R loading... so with the SAS here - the 65k or 97k loading provided the flattest midrange... and up to 10kHz... but then you get a substantial peak, which needs to be controlled with a fairly substantial C load to roll it back down.

Later I did another series of tests at 505pf C load:

View attachment 263930
Note: Me75p is another M97x p-mount variant ... I have a small collection of bodies!

Here you can see that with the increased C load and light increase in R load 55k - I achieve a very good neutral response through to about 15kHz - after which it completely drops off - it is within +/- 1db up to around 14kHz - and within +/- 3db up to 19kHz.

You have to trade off flatness in the 4k to 10kHz frequency range, for extension and rise around 14 / 15 khz

The SAS needle, as good as it is, has too much effective mass to achieve the flat frequency response of the beryllium tube originals....

The resulting resonance at around 15kHz is what needs to be tamed (along with the slight droop in the lower highs/upper midrange... which is probably magnetic related rather than cantilever.. and inherent to the body/generator design I think).

I have a feeling I have some measurements where I got closer to an ideal loading with the M97 family of bodies and the SAS stylus....but there are multiple "optimal" loadings as you need to choose the aspect of performance you are most willing to sacrifice, and the one you want to optimise for most.

This is the issue here (I'm certain the Shure V15 IV was less sensitive to loading). The majority of phono stages offer 47 - 50k loading and moderate, say 100pF capacitance, with few dissenters. These days, is the format upper mid-fi at best, really worth all this tinkering around with, especially with what I'd regarded as a lower caste cartridge? A VM95E is so basically good at what it does for forty odd quid and the SH one again surprising bearing in mind the cheap body internals. The ****** black plastic discs we play are the limitations quite often and even an AT95E can reproduce much of the differences - the VM95E is a definite refinement on its predecessor but still the same basic family.

I have here an AT120E with a SIX DB peak at 10kHz. Rather than bite one's head off, the 'sparkle' up there is actually quite sweet (arm level or slightly down at the back), it adds 'air' to dull 60's classical music pressings from Decca and Philips (some of these were *severely* equalised when first cut - I've seen the evidence written on the tape boxes) and in fact, it's excesses up top are heard subjectively as a slightly 'detached' bass in some players and 'taut and clean' in low mass arms which don't clump around in the bottom end... The VM540 isn't expensive in cartridge terms and seems these days to have a fairly predictable performance at 2g tracking into many amp loads I think. My beer budget cartridge years ago was the Linn K9 (AT93/95 body with initially metal mount and Vital stylus tip) and with inflation at Linn prices, now equates to the AT VM740, a far more sophisticated model (metal mount version of the 540 I believe).

All good fun and please excuse me not really getting the hobby side these days as it's 'familiarity breeding 'meh'' now after fifty years or so setting this stuff up professionally and 'digital' sounding so good into more neutral speakers

 

[Bob from Florida]

Would be interesting getting some measurements...

That would require getting an ADC, a decent test record, getting up to speed on software detailed in JP’s fine measurement thread, and swapping out various cartridges to make those measurements. Hmmm, my son would say “too much work”. Not me at the moment, perhaps in a few years when I retire.

 

[dlaloum]

This is the issue here (I'm certain the Shure V15 IV was less sensitive to loading). The majority of phono stages offer 47 - 50k loading and moderate, say 100pF capacitance, with few dissenters. These days, is the format upper mid-fi at best, really worth all this tinkering around with, especially with what I'd regarded as a lower caste cartridge? A VM95E is so basically good at what it does for forty odd quid and the SH one again surprising bearing in mind the cheap body internals. The ****** black plastic discs we play are the limitations quite often and even an AT95E can reproduce much of the differences - the VM95E is a definite refinement on its predecessor but still the same basic family.

I have here an AT120E with a SIX DB peak at 10kHz. Rather than bite one's head off, the 'sparkle' up there is actually quite sweet (arm level or slightly down at the back), it adds 'air' to dull 60's classical music pressings from Decca and Philips (some of these were *severely* equalised when first cut - I've seen the evidence written on the tape boxes) and in fact, it's excesses up top are heard subjectively as a slightly 'detached' bass in some players and 'taut and clean' in low mass arms which don't clump around in the bottom end... The VM540 isn't expensive in cartridge terms and seems these days to have a fairly predictable performance at 2g tracking into many amp loads I think. My beer budget cartridge years ago was the Linn K9 (AT93/95 body with initially metal mount and Vital stylus tip) and with inflation at Linn prices, now equates to the AT VM740, a far more sophisticated model (metal mount version of the 540 I believe).

All good fun and please excuse me not really getting the hobby side these days as it's 'familiarity breeding 'meh'' now after fifty years or so setting this stuff up professionally and 'digital' sounding so good into more neutral speakers

I don't disagree - the TT's got placed out of harms way at the birth of my son... (remarkably tenacious and able to climb into the strangest places!) - and I have not really pulled them out seriously since.

The measurements I made were in spate of intellectual investigation, trying to understand the performance of the cartridges & styli, and then optimise for digitisation... ie: how do I get the best possible feed from the vinyl - to digitise for archival and future use.

Bit of an OCD exercise that took enormous amounts of time....

 

[RCAguy]

Vinyls may sound pretty good, especially those with half speed mastering and not much dynamic compression.

View attachment 252288

Half-speed mastering can sound quite good*, but even better if the replay stylus tip is a narrow elliptical or preferably line contact profile to reproduce those HF.

*Assuming the inverse RIAA is adjusted by an octave, and the tape player's LF (soon to be LMF) head bump at half speed isn't terrible.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Often the reason people like the "sound" or "voicing" of a cartridge, is the rising high end (caused by the resonanc of the cantilever) - which accentuates some of the fine detail in the 15kHz to 20kHz range, that we often don't hear.... so psycho-acoustically, we are suddenly hearing details we never heard before !! (we can EQ to achieve the same effect....)

Paying big money for cartridges seems wasteful as there are so many high quality ones for a couple hundred ... Ortofon Blue that is included with a Fluance 85 for $500 is probably the best deal in LPs for objectivists.

Subjectively, I enjoy my vintage b&o with an SMMC 3 from Soundsmith. It's a little duller and more laidback than the Blue.

 

[Sal1950]

One of these was the last time I attempted hi-end audio in the car.

 

[Blumlein 88]

This is the issue here (I'm certain the Shure V15 IV was less sensitive to loading). The majority of phono stages offer 47 - 50k loading and moderate, say 100pF capacitance, with few dissenters. These days, is the format upper mid-fi at best, really worth all this tinkering around with, especially with what I'd regarded as a lower caste cartridge? A VM95E is so basically good at what it does for forty odd quid and the SH one again surprising bearing in mind the cheap body internals. The ****** black plastic discs we play are the limitations quite often and even an AT95E can reproduce much of the differences - the VM95E is a definite refinement on its predecessor but still the same basic family.

I have here an AT120E with a SIX DB peak at 10kHz. Rather than bite one's head off, the 'sparkle' up there is actually quite sweet (arm level or slightly down at the back), it adds 'air' to dull 60's classical music pressings from Decca and Philips (some of these were *severely* equalised when first cut - I've seen the evidence written on the tape boxes) and in fact, it's excesses up top are heard subjectively as a slightly 'detached' bass in some players and 'taut and clean' in low mass arms which don't clump around in the bottom end... The VM540 isn't expensive in cartridge terms and seems these days to have a fairly predictable performance at 2g tracking into many amp loads I think. My beer budget cartridge years ago was the Linn K9 (AT93/95 body with initially metal mount and Vital stylus tip) and with inflation at Linn prices, now equates to the AT VM740, a far more sophisticated model (metal mount version of the 540 I believe).

All good fun and please excuse me not really getting the hobby side these days as it's 'familiarity breeding 'meh'' now after fifty years or so setting this stuff up professionally and 'digital' sounding so good into more neutral speakers

Actually 4-8 khz is what will sound bright. Above that you usually do get airiness. I've always thought one reason MC cartridges sounded more transparent subjectively had to do with most of them having a resonance in the upper treble. One that just happened to un-EQ the slight droop that tape had which was the source of most LPs. I also remember more than once reviews of Shure cartridges (which usually had pretty flat response) described them as having tape-like highs. Well if accurate that is exactly how it should have sounded.