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Why do records sound so much better than digital?

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mhardy6647

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Just saying the vinyl fanboy stuff is extremely limited, it's simply not the best way to go.
[EDIT: it seems to me...] That's akin to saying "Owning a 1965 Ford Mustang is simply not the best way to go, since the 2022 Mustang is demonstrably superior in every respect".
At one level, it's completely true.
At another level, it's completely irrelevant.

;)
 
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maverickronin

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[EDIT: it seems to me...] That's akin to saying "Owning a 1965 Ford Mustang is simply not the best way to go, since the 2022 Mustang is demonstrably superior in every respect".
At one level, it's completely true.
At another level, it's completely irrelevant.

;)

Until you resto-mod the '65...
 

MattHooper

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Thread summary:

OP: “Why is vinyl better than digital?”

Most: "It isn't."

Some: "It's superior because I'm so special and understand why it needs to be worse than it could in order to sound "right"!! The fact that it sounds bad, makes it sound superior TO ME!!! I said TO MEEEEE!!!! TO ME! And superior TO ME is also superior just as any other superior and why would only yours be superior, why don't you allow for a different superior, you step all over my superior and think only your superior counts!!! Who are you to dismiss my superior! I want my right to equal outcome in what is superior in audio gear!!"

Most: That makes no sense. Do you feel threatened?

Fascinating.

So that's how killdozzer's brain is processing the conversations about vinyl.

I think he has provided some insight in to why discussing vinyl on ASR can be so fraught.

But it likely wasn't the insight he intended. ;)
 

mhardy6647

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Until you resto-mod the '65...
I think one would be hard put to get it to the level of a 2022 without, e.g., a bodyswap kind of mod.
At least the '65 could be made to go fast in a straight line. Other than that, though, I think one would be kind of hosed.

Maybe put the '65 body on a Tesla. ;)

On topic, I mean, the vinylista do pretty much the same thing to, e.g., Thorens TD-125s and Fairchild transcription tts all the time.
As an aside: is Fairchildren the plural of Fairchild?
:cool:
 

MattHooper

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I think it’s obvious who feels threatened. The long-standing members of this forum who listen to vinyl also listen to various digital sources and stipulated its technical superiority early on. And repeatedly since then, in a vain attempt to acknowledge those who insist that merely listening to vinyl is antithetical to science akin to advocating for a flat earth.

Those few who came in from the outside to tout the usual heresies found no friends among the regulars who play with analog playback.

Rick “read it how you want to” Denney

It really is bizarre isn't it?

As I've said, so much of the friction in these conversations seem to come from some people not being able to see beyond their own desires, to understand how people find pleasure in things they don't, and why it's therefore rational for others to pursue those pleasures.

"It bothers me when other people like something I don't like! Even worse, how self-centered of them to explain why they enjoy it!"
 

MattHooper

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BTW....

kill "you shouldn't expect a different outcome if it's all repeating, someone once said that's insanity" dozzer.
View attachment 223024

...is all I'm saying.

In which your post poses a conundrum: Apparently your senses were reliable enough to successfully compose and send that post. Further, you expect the senses of others to be reliable enough to read it. Otherwise why post it?

(A hint about being careful to not push a proposition further than it goes...)
 

IPunchCholla

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I don't think it's rational, but I don't think it needs to be either.
That might be an interesting line of inquiry. If we rationally use our known irrationalities to increase our enjoyment, is that rational or irrational?

I know that digital is audibly closer to the recording. I also know that, like all humans I am susceptible to non-auditory inputs altering my perception of music. In particular I am aware that the ritual of vinyl taps into deep seated threads of nostalgia, and that the tactile and visual elements alter my perception of the sound in such a way that I enjoy the experience of listening to music via vinyl more than I would via digital, on occasion. Is it irrational of me to knowing if use those biases and non-auditory inputs to give myself more pleasure, since pleasure is the goal?
 

Bob from Florida

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I think it’s obvious who feels threatened. The long-standing members of this forum who listen to vinyl also listen to various digital sources and stipulated its technical superiority early on. And repeatedly since then, in a vain attempt to acknowledge those who insist that merely listening to vinyl is antithetical to science akin to advocating for a flat earth.

Those few who came in from the outside to tout the usual heresies found no friends among the regulars who play with analog playback.

Rick “read it how you want to” Denney
One of the problems with focusing on measurements is context. CD's have a dynamic range of 96 db. Vinyl has max dynamic range between 60 and 70 db. Live orchestras have up to 90 db of dynamic range. Recordings published on CD's or Vinyl have seldom more than 30 db max. Both formats are fully capable of playback of the actual recording's dynamic range. This being the case, CD's will have a quieter background and potentially flatter frequency response. Vinyl can have relative quiet and sufficiently flat frequency response if components are carefully selected and matched. Background noise may mask the baseline noise where one may not notice it or if you have exceptional low level hearing may notice and have a problem.
 

MattHooper

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I don't think it's rational, but I don't think it needs to be either.

I'd wonder what your notion of "rational" is, then.

Generally speaking, rational actions are held to be the coherent connection between our beliefs and desires, and the actions likely to fulfill those desires.

So:

Value: I enjoy drinking beer.

Desire: I have a desire to drink beer now.

Belief: There is a beer in my fridge.

Conclusion: Going to the fridge to get a beer is likely to fulfill my desire.

So taking that action is rational.

Similarly:

Value: I enjoy listening to records.

Desire: I desire to be able to listen to records

Belief: Owning a turntable and buying records will fulfill that desire.

Conclusion: Buying a turntable and acquiring records is likely to fulfill my desire.

Rational action: Acquire turntable and records.

Where is the irrationality?

Do you think it's irrational to seek something that gives pleasure?
 

beagleman

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One of the problems with focusing on measurements is context. CD's have a dynamic range of 96 db. Vinyl has max dynamic range between 60 and 70 db. Live orchestras have up to 90 db of dynamic range. Recordings published on CD's or Vinyl have seldom more than 30 db max. Both formats are fully capable of playback of the actual recording's dynamic range. This being the case, CD's will have a quieter background and potentially flatter frequency response. Vinyl can have relative quiet and sufficiently flat frequency response if components are carefully selected and matched. Background noise may mask the baseline noise where one may not notice it or if you have exceptional low level hearing may notice and have a problem.
But there are a few more issues to deal with.
 

MattHooper

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That might be an interesting line of inquiry. If we rationally use our known irrationalities to increase our enjoyment, is that rational or irrational?

I've seen audiophiles say on this forum and others that they don't think listening to records is rational...or even that their own act of listening to records is rational.

This seems a fundamental misunderstanding of rationality. All our goals arise from values - something we like or desire. All rational action is predicated on what actions are likely to fulfill those desires. (In which we look to real world facts that imply the outcome of our action is likely to fulfill that desire).

When evaluating rational actions, you have to be aware of other people's desires in order to do so. If you are a vegetarian who hates meat, then ordering meat at the restaurant would be irrational for you. But if someone else liked meat, then it would be rational for them. Your being a vegetarian doesn't make it irrational for someone else to eat meat. Different preferences and goals matter to evaluating rationality. Yes, you can do something that is irrational insofar as it directly thwarts an immediate goal, or some wider goal you hold more important. But if it doesn't...it's perfectly rational.

It's not like it's written in to the fabric of the universe that liking digital music playback is "rational" while liking records is "irrational."

If, all things considered, listening to digital streaming is more pleasurable for you, then it's rational to listen to your music that way.
If it's more pleasurable spinning records...it's rational to do so.
 

Jimi Floyd

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Why do records sound so much better than digital?​

very simple:

Loudness war.jpg


That's why.
 

IPunchCholla

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I've seen audiophiles say on this forum and others that they don't think listening to records is rational...or even that their own act of listening to records is rational.

This seems a fundamental misunderstanding of rationality. All our goals arise from values - something we like or desire. All rational action is predicated on what actions are likely to fulfill those desires. (In which we look to real world facts that imply the outcome of our action is likely to fulfill that desire).

When evaluating rational actions, you have to be aware of other people's desires in order to do so. If you are a vegetarian who hates meat, then ordering meat at the restaurant would be irrational for you. But if someone else liked meat, then it would be rational for them. Your being a vegetarian doesn't make it irrational for someone else to eat meat. Different preferences and goals matter to evaluating rationality. Yes, you can do something that is irrational insofar as it directly thwarts an immediate goal, or some wider goal you hold more important. But if it doesn't...it's perfectly rational.

It's not like it's written in to the fabric of the universe that liking digital music playback is "rational" while liking records is "irrational."

If, all things considered, listening to digital streaming is more pleasurable for you, then it's rational to listen to your music that way.
If it's more pleasurable spinning records...it's rational to do so.
I agree. My point was more in acknowledging our own built in cognitive biases, but instead of lamenting them, using them to our own advantage. We know people’s brains change in such a way when they are told how rare and expensive a bottle of wine is, that they taste the wine as more pleasurable than if they are told it is cheap wine. Rather than saying “that’s dumb” we should view it as a tool to increase our pleasure in wine. Maybe by marketing 3 buck Chuck as another brand, but marked off 99%?

I don’t think there is anything irrational in my listening to vinyl. I look at it as a tool to use my own cognitive biases to occasionally get deeper pleasure from listening to certain music.
 

Sal1950

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I think it’s obvious who feels threatened. The long-standing members of this forum who listen to vinyl also listen to various digital sources and stipulated its technical superiority early on. And repeatedly since then, in a vain attempt to acknowledge those who insist that merely listening to vinyl is antithetical to science akin to advocating for a flat earth.
No one feels threatened in the least.
Those being threatened are the ones buying into the marketing and all the BS that revolves around vinyl.
I very much find the idea of spending thousands if not ten's of thousands of dollars on vinyl gear right up there
with spending the same on power cords, USB cords, and all the rest of the useless toys the lamestream media
promotes as offering the path to nirvana in music reproduction.
Now are you going to answer with the same BS as the cable guys, "if it makes them happy it's all good"?
New members come here daily looking for the honest, unwavering truth on building a quality HiFi rig.
They deserve not to be brainwashed.
ETljlMrWsAImS9s.jpg
 

JP

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IPunchCholla

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No one feels threatened in the least.
Those being threatened are the ones buying into the marketing and all the BS that revolves around vinyl.
I very much find the idea of spending thousands if not ten's of thousands of dollars on vinyl gear right up there
with spending the same on power cords, USB cords, and all the rest of the useless toys the lamestream media
promotes as offering the path to nirvana in music reproduction.
Now are you going to answer with the same BS as the cable guys, "if it makes them happy it's all good"?
New members come here daily looking for the honest, unwavering truth on building a quality HiFi rig.
They deserve not to be brainwashed.
View attachment 223096
Nice straw man! As usual.
 

JP

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New members come here daily looking for the honest, unwavering truth on building a quality HiFi rig.
They deserve not to be brainwashed.
But the truth isn't good enough for you. You want everyone to comply with what you've decided is the appropriate path.
 

maverickronin

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I think one would be hard put to get it to the level of a 2022 without, e.g., a bodyswap kind of mod.
At least the '65 could be made to go fast in a straight line. Other than that, though, I think one would be kind of hosed.

Definitely need more than just an engine and tranny swap. You'd basically be replacing or very heavily modifying everything but the body, but that's the most important part so no big deal.

Kinda like this awesome audio related resto-mod.

9A8DD7D2-AAFD-4F86-AD0D-36EDB3AD9687.jpeg
Here is my up cycled Sony TC 209 SD cassette deck minus its cassette mech and now housing an RPi 3 running Picoreplayer, plus Allo Digione hat, SPDIF out put is to RME ADI-2 DAC, complete with active moving Coil VU meters and functional cassette ‘piano keys’ for RW/Stop/Play/FF/Next track (substituted for record) and Pause.

What's the turntable equivalent of this?
 
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