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Why do records sound so much better than digital?

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Loathecliff

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I thought it was wax cylinders.
Indeed it was Sir, as I can attest.
My paternal grandfather proved that his phonograph with the Edison badge reproduced living sound with 100% accuracy by recording his dachshund barking, and then playing the recording back in the presence of the dog.
The animal flew at the source of the noise, and the impact kinked the trumpet.
 

j_j

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Get a decent digital system and bin the vinyl - nothing natural about listening to your Rice Crispies mixed in with an FM radio.

It is true however that a LOT of earlier CDs were really badly mixed for that medium. Not so these days. Mostly.
Not going to give up my vinyl. There is no way I can get a CD of most of my vinyl, it's both old and "unusual".

But for anything modern, digital all the way.
 

MalinYamato

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what should we call this new trend with very old audio gear including vinyl plates and tubes: vintage audiophilia, retro audiophilia, stone-age audiophilia or medieval audiophilia, or perhaps granny audiophilia? My grandad is dead -- he designed radios and amplifiers of the old school but when he passed away insensitive ppl threw most of what he had away just because relatives thought that they were old, with no respect for what he made, the finest amplifiers in the country at that time with craftmanship above anything else....I am perhaps the only lady here and my interests in audio gear have lots to do with spending lots of time in my grandfather's audio lab and listening to the best-reproduced music in Nothern Europe -- I am still trying to get even better sounding gear, which will only end when I run out fo cash.
 
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Killingbeans

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what should we call this new trend with very old audio gear including vinyl plates and tubes: vintage audiophilia, retro audiophilia, stone-age audiophilia or medieval audiophilia, or perhaps granny audiophilia?

Retro Hipster Audio-nostalgia.
 

Newman

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The Vintage Appreciation Segment. No need for a put-down.

And they will get all the respect in the world from me, until they claim sound quality peaked in The 19xx’s.
 

j_j

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what should we call this new trend with very old audio gear including vinyl plates and tubes: vintage audiophilia, retro audiophilia, stone-age audiophilia or medieval audiophilia, or perhaps granny audiophilia? My grandad is dead -- he designed radios and amplifiers of the old school but when he passed away insensitive ppl threw most of what he had away just because relatives thought that they were old, with no respect for what he made, the finest amplifiers in the country at that time with craftmanship above anything else....I am perhaps the only lady here and my interests in audio gear have lots to do with spending lots of time in my grandfather's audio lab and listening to the best-reproduced music in Nothern Europe -- I am still trying to get even better sounding gear, which will only end when I run out fo cash.
I call it people who care about the music from before 1990.
 

A Surfer

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The notion that vinyl sounds better is just poorly informed and ridiculous. I'm sorry, but it is. Who comes up with this stuff? I just spent hours with my brother and his son listening to his very good vinyl rig. Despite having great records that he cleans very well, you still hear ticks and pops, it most certainly does not sound better even removing the audible noise artifacts. I wouldn't waste a minute of my life on vinyl thinking it provided anything special and I grew up on vinyl. Quite happy to have moved past it and more than happy with 1s and 0s.
 

j_j

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The notion that vinyl sounds better is just poorly informed and ridiculous.

Well, there are some distortions in vinyl that some people like. So "sounds better" is really a personal thing (although I hate noise and rumble, and prefer to be able to play things more than once a fortnight). In terms of sheer accuracy, of course, uncoded (i.e. no MP3, AAC, Opus, whatever) digital at at 44 or 48 is entirely better.

But don't mix preference with accuracy. They are different. Yes, it is possible to make a "vinyl simulator" for a digital bitstream. Been there, done that. Some people like it. (I'm not big on it, myself.)
 

A Surfer

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Well, there are some distortions in vinyl that some people like. So "sounds better" is really a personal thing (although I hate noise and rumble, and prefer to be able to play things more than once a fortnight). In terms of sheer accuracy, of course, uncoded (i.e. no MP3, AAC, Opus, whatever) digital at at 44 or 48 is entirely better.

But don't mix preference with accuracy. They are different. Yes, it is possible to make a "vinyl simulator" for a digital bitstream. Been there, done that. Some people like it. (I'm not big on it, myself.)
Fair points, for sure, but I am speaking (or trying to and perhaps failing) in the objective sense of what I think people mean when they say sounds better, but I do take your point. I think I would react less to these big claims if vinyl fans would consistently acknowledge what the science tells us and couch their words by qualifying claims such as you did. If they would just say I love the coloured sound that vinyl playback introduces and for me it is better, that I could live with, no problem at all. Same goes for those who love valve amplification. I have owned an OTL amp for instance with great tubes and I also enjoyed it, but I knew that it was not technically superior, or more true to the recording than my solid state integrated. Rant over.
 

j_j

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If they would just say I love the coloured sound that vinyl playback introduces and for me it is better, that I could live with, no problem at all. Same goes for those who love valve amplification. I have owned an OTL amp for instance with great tubes and I also enjoyed it, but I knew that it was not technically superior, or more true to the recording than my solid state integrated. Rant over.
Oh I understand entirely. I've heard things like "no bandwidth limits" (said by nobody who ever cut a record), "infinite resolution" (said by nobody who ever measured the noise floor of the best vinyl under the best conditions), "warmer" (whatever that means), better dynamic range (ibid) and so on.

There is ***ONE*** good thing about vinyl. Due to its physical limits you simply can not cut a vinyl record in such a hypercompressed state as modern CD's are often produced. In some cases this means that the vinyl DOES sound better, but only because they had to lay off the hypercompression. No, that's not a fault of either medium, but it's a problem.
 

A Surfer

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Oh I understand entirely. I've heard things like "no bandwidth limits" (said by nobody who ever cut a record), "infinite resolution" (said by nobody who ever measured the noise floor of the best vinyl under the best conditions), "warmer" (whatever that means), better dynamic range (ibid) and so on.

There is ***ONE*** good thing about vinyl. Due to its physical limits you simply can not cut a vinyl record in such a hypercompressed state as modern CD's are often produced. In some cases this means that the vinyl DOES sound better, but only because they had to lay off the hypercompression. No, that's not a fault of either medium, but it's a problem.
So funny that you say this, and it does give me some pause and suggests that I need to walk my statements back at least a little. I myself also yearn for less hypercompression. I do love dynamic range, but moreso I think I would like a middle of the road approach where the compression is not done to the absolute limit. I am also not a fan of those overly dynamic recordings where you need 500 watts of power to reach a satisfying SPL that translates scale and bass impact.

A recording such as Steely Dan's Two Against Nature might be close to such a thing (although I have not seen measurements of it).
 

Blumlein 88

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So funny that you say this, and it does give me some pause and suggests that I need to walk my statements back at least a little. I myself also yearn for less hypercompression. I do love dynamic range, but moreso I think I would like a middle of the road approach where the compression is not done to the absolute limit. I am also not a fan of those overly dynamic recordings where you need 500 watts of power to reach a satisfying SPL that translates scale and bass impact.

A recording such as Steely Dan's Two Against Nature might be close to such a thing (although I have not seen measurements of it).
Yeah Two Against Nature is well done. I think it rates DR14 to DR18 depending upon which version. The DVD-A version rates highest in this regard. On that album they supposedly used only Shure KSM 32 microphones and those are good microphones. More transparent to the source than most microphones.
 

Robin L

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I call it people who care about the music from before 1990.
Not to be pedantic with someone far more educated than I, but seeing as the big Baroque revival was in the 1990's, I say it's more about people who care about recordings before 1990. I'm someone who does, but I'd leave the archiving of such stuff to those I consider more expert. I'm done with the vinyl game though I do care about recorded history and recording history. I'd point out the JSP CD box of Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens as an example of the work of someone who deeply cares about music of the past. I was lucky enough to find a very playable copy of the same material on a Columbia needledrop LP of the fifties, but I'd say the JSP transfers are better. Even more to the point, there are the centennial transfers of Robert Johnson's 78s, archival work that changed the perception of that artist's sound. That involved technical procedures not available for previous transfer work.

I think you're more or less right, but would note that recordings of music of Baroque and Pre-Baroque had sudden and previously unprecedented levels of interest in the 1990s, naturally falling off as consumers reached their limit and previously unrecorded musics witnessed their third new recording for a given year. A lot of this came about as production costs for this kind of music became far lower than previous, particularly when the DAT recorder became ubiquitous.
 

charleski

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I think you're more or less right, but would note that recordings of music of Baroque and Pre-Baroque had sudden and previously unprecedented levels of interest in the 1990s, naturally falling off as consumers reached their limit and previously unrecorded musics witnessed their third new recording for a given year. A lot of this came about as production costs for this kind of music became far lower than previous, particularly when the DAT recorder became ubiquitous.
I think was at least partly fueled by the culmination of the period-instrument movement, which can be traced back to the 1940s, but really only broke through into mainstream performance once players had mastered the subtly different techniques these instruments required. Anyone hearing one of Harnoncourt's squeaky renditions from the '60s could probably sympathise with Robert Layton's view that "We need a revival of period strings as much as we need a revival of period dentistry". But by the late '80s things were a lot different and it did offer a valid reason to go out and buy all-new recordings of repertoire one already owned.
 

j_j

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Not to be pedantic with someone far more educated than I, but seeing as the big Baroque revival was in the 1990's, I say it's more about people who care about recordings before 1990. I'm someone who does, but I'd leave the archiving of such stuff to those I consider more expert. I'm done with the vinyl game though I do care about recorded history and recording history. I'd point out the JSP CD box of Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens as an example of the work of someone who deeply cares about music of the past. I was lucky enough to find a very playable copy of the same material on a Columbia needledrop LP of the fifties, but I'd say the JSP transfers are better. Even more to the point, there are the centennial transfers of Robert Johnson's 78s, archival work that changed the perception of that artist's sound. That involved technical procedures not available for previous transfer work.

I think you're more or less right, but would note that recordings of music of Baroque and Pre-Baroque had sudden and previously unprecedented levels of interest in the 1990s, naturally falling off as consumers reached their limit and previously unrecorded musics witnessed their third new recording for a given year. A lot of this came about as production costs for this kind of music became far lower than previous, particularly when the DAT recorder became ubiquitous.

Well, I suppose. But when I consider some of the old folkways stuff I have (that can never be duplicated unless somebody digitizes somebody's LP's), from people who are dead, it's a bit of both, I guess.

What I find so frustrating is that it should be possible to make better and cleaner recordings of anything from Sweelinck to (Oh, Cage, I suppose ) but the cost of musicians and venues, coupled with various recording rights issues, means that it's actually harder to get a better recording.

Also, I have quite a few CD's of older LP's I own. Many of the transfers, to put it in a polite way, are just terrible. For instance, why does the CD of "Best of the Tremeloes" have more clipping than the remaster of LZ2? Really!
 

Robin L

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I think was at least partly fueled by the culmination of the period-instrument movement, which can be traced back to the 1940s, but really only broke through into mainstream performance once players had mastered the subtly different techniques these instruments required. Anyone hearing one of Harnoncourt's squeaky renditions from the '60s could probably sympathise with Robert Layton's view that "We need a revival of period strings as much as we need a revival of period dentistry". But by the late '80s things were a lot different and it did offer a valid reason to go out and buy all-new recordings of repertoire one already owned.
Things have moved even farther. I'm hearing performances of "early Musicke" with more grace and style recently, not to mention audio capture:

 

A Surfer

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Yeah Two Against Nature is well done. I think it rates DR14 to DR18 depending upon which version. The DVD-A version rates highest in this regard. On that album they supposedly used only Shure KSM 32 microphones and those are good microphones. More transparent to the source than most microphones.
I didn't know that information, but I'm not surprised. Thank you. The track Negative Girl is consistently a test track of mine (plus I really enjoy it). Great album for sure.
 

MattHooper

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The notion that vinyl sounds better is just poorly informed and ridiculous. I'm sorry, but it is. Who comes up with this stuff? I just spent hours with my brother and his son listening to his very good vinyl rig. Despite having great records that he cleans very well, you still hear ticks and pops, it most certainly does not sound better even removing the audible noise artifacts. I wouldn't waste a minute of my life on vinyl thinking it provided anything special and I grew up on vinyl. Quite happy to have moved past it and more than happy with 1s and 0s.

Vinyl isn't for everyone, that's for sure! As I've said before, a liking for vinyl will depend to some degree on a tolerance for record noise.
I don't like record noise at all. So I try to buy mint or close to mint records and if they are noisy at all I'll clean them. I don't hear record noise
during the music of most of my records. But it can certainly be there in between tracks, and sometimes during tracks to some degree.
I'm willing to listen through it if the noise isn't distracting (to my ears).

If it drove you nuts there'd obviously be no point in you spinning vinyl.

if they would just say I love the coloured sound that vinyl playback introduces and for me it is better, that I could live with, no problem at all.

I'll cop to that :)

I know there are plenty of people (especially members of this forum who still spin vinyl sometimes) who say they like aspects of vinyl and can enjoy it despite the "downgrade" in sound quality from their digital source. I'm actually attracted to the sound of vinyl. I wouldn't listen to lots of records on my 2 channel system if that weren't the case. (I also love digital as well).
 

A Surfer

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@MattHooper absolutely, that is the beauty of things, it isn't an either or situation. Somebody can enjoy both digital and vinyl systems for their inherent strengths and weaknesses. As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 

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