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Why do records sound so much better than digital?

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Galliardist

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hi
all digital system recording have latency on monitoring....
that's why nowaday UAD use ARM dsp to calculate the flow of audio in their LUNA system https://www.uaudio.fr/luna.html
protools HDX use the same technology with FGPA dsp . but there's still 2 millisecond of latency at 44.1 khz...
if you only record a vinyl on a DSD recorder like this https://www.tascam.eu/fr/da-3000 latency is not a problem... you will not fell it ! and you will have the same sound than a tape recorder without : "mechanical spinning, never perfect, always wow and flutter as you say"
but if you record your guitar your bass through digital mixer or AD/DA converter or a computer with asio driver or even Merging pyramix DSD recording system https://www.merging.com/products/pyramix
you will hear the latency ! after you had recorded your track !
so after... you have to compensate it ....and you will never be as precise than in a old tape recorder running at the speed of light !
for rhythm yes if you use a beat box it will be more precise than a human playing drums... but if you record a guitar on a digital recorder with a beat box , you will be less precise than record a guitar on a beat box with a tape recorder...
also ...midi jitter grow up with new computer... cubase with an atari 512 st have less jitter than a windows or mac / linux computer !
so i think we have to wait a long long time before having a digital recorder without latency...
and even more more time to have a multitrack DSD digital recorder without latency on monitoring .....
best regards
weesch
What I said was:
There won't be any noticeable latency in straightforward digital playback.
You mention MIDI. That's somewhat irrelevant. The rest of your post is tied up around latency in digital recording systems, which is also irrelevant to the subject of this thread, which is digital and LP playback in the home.

I don't doubt that in this day and age of complex studio productions, digital instrument effects and such, you can introduce latency and other effects in all sorts of different ways. But it must be a solved problem. From the earliest multitrack digital recordings until now, we don't get lots of reports of latency affecting rhythm or putting perfomers out of time with each other - if it was in the published recording, it would be pretty obvious.

Digital works. Get over it.
 

Blumlein 88

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hi !
how explain this !
thanks
Take a file do some unknown dsp and let it fold higher frequencies down to the audible band and it sounds different. Looks like they are doing some aliasing with the vst plug in.
 

antcollinet

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ok
is it a good example of aliasing here ?
It's a reasonable description of aliasing, but as described, aliasing only happens when there are frequency components higher than half the sample rate.

Normally (also as stated) this is avoided by band limiting the input signal to less than half the sample rate, using a low pass filter.
 

Frgirard

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ok
is it a good example of aliasing here ?
Please we have in this thread a guy recreated the world https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...or-itd-see-measures.28585/page-8#post-1006187

For you, it will be better to read this thread. We're not gonna wake up the old moons

The digital is the perfect format since the 70's.
 

weesch

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They sound the same… so what?
you think so ?
for me there"s more treble a medium at 384 khz...
but maybe it's vst aliased high frenquency making the sound different....
if i had time i will make a recording between 44.1 and 96 khz with the same source
and we will see...
 

weesch

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hi
i have a little test here to know what is the maximum high frequency you hear...
for my self it's around 16 / 17 khz
just test and tell us what is the limit for you !
maybe we have not the same ear capability ?
best regards
weesch
 

weesch

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Take a file do some unknown dsp and let it fold higher frequencies down to the audible band and it sounds different. Looks like they are doing some aliasing with the vst plug in.
hi again
maybe it's aliasing code in the vst they use...
but i think it's DAD converter (mentionned at the begining wich make a difference between 44.1 khz and 384 khz)
 

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Holmz

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you think so ?
for me there"s more treble a medium at 384 khz...
but maybe it's vst aliased high frenquency making the sound different....
if i had time i will make a recording between 44.1 and 96 khz with the same source
and we will see...

Maybe there is a way to measure whether there is more treble in it?
 

Frgirard

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Weesch, I posted a link on a thread. If you have datas revolutionizing Shannon's theorem, the development of FIR filters, post them.
 

weesch

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Weesch, I posted a link on a thread. If you have datas revolutionizing Shannon's theorem, the development of FIR filters, post them.
hi
I do not pretend to revolution this thoerem.
I just hear a difference between 44.1 khz and 96 khz when I mix.
especially the treble which becomes less aggressive at 96 khz than 44.1 khz .
and yes i have data telling that this theory is impossible to apply perfectly here :
here they say that : "you need an ideal brick-wall filter (infinitely sharp transition band) called a reconstruction filter. Unfortunately, such a perfect filter is impossible to obtain"
and they say also this : sampling you signal at a higher frequency will result in a periodisation of the signal at a longer period, which basically gives more space for your filter's transition band .
so maybe use higher frequency give a better reconstruction filter .
so a the end a better sound....
 

weesch

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Maybe there is a way to measure whether there is more treble in it?
hi
i don't have measurment hardware able to do this...
i just have my ears....
but i will make an experience soon buy putting a record at 44.1k and another record at 96 khz with the same source...
but i wonder how to do this ?
maybe make an accoustic recording with a microphone in front of a speaker and listen the result at 44.1 khz and 96 khz....
 

misterdog

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The only one that was apparent was the LP—the vinyl roar and surface noise was apparent.

Though not with a decent phono stage, you can dial out all that high frequency hash with the cartridge loading.

People spend a fortune on the spinner and the rock, neglecting that the phono stage is adding more gain than their power amp.

I have one of the highest SINAD rated DACS - SMSL M400, and it sounds the same as my £ 10K vinyl set up, except where the mastering is worse on one format or the other.

All through Topping Pre90,Benchmark AHB2 into heavily modded Quad 989 electrostatic loudspeakers.
 

Blumlein 88

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Though not with a decent phono stage, you can dial out all that high frequency hash with the cartridge loading.

People spend a fortune on the spinner and the rock, neglecting that the phono stage is adding more gain than their power amp.

I have one of the highest SINAD rated DACS - SMSL M400, and it sounds the same as my £ 10K vinyl set up, except where the mastering is worse on one format or the other.

All through Topping Pre90,Benchmark AHB2 into heavily modded Quad 989 electrostatic loudspeakers.
I find this claim unlikely. The mastering is necessarily different between any vinyl vs any other source whether rtr or digital.
 

tmtomh

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hi
I do not pretend to revolution this thoerem.
I just hear a difference between 44.1 khz and 96 khz when I mix.
especially the treble which becomes less aggressive at 96 khz than 44.1 khz .
and yes i have data telling that this theory is impossible to apply perfectly here :
here they say that : "you need an ideal brick-wall filter (infinitely sharp transition band) called a reconstruction filter. Unfortunately, such a perfect filter is impossible to obtain"
and they say also this : sampling you signal at a higher frequency will result in a periodisation of the signal at a longer period, which basically gives more space for your filter's transition band .
so maybe use higher frequency give a better reconstruction filter .
so a the end a better sound....

Yes, there needs to be a reconstruction filter, and because of how they work and the practicalities of electronics, you cannot actually reconstruct a frequency at the exact Nyquist limit of your sample rate. With this in mind, it is important to note that if you are hearing differences, and if those differences could be consistently heard in a proper blind test, what you're hearing is not the differences in the sample rate per se. What you would be hearing would be differences in the sample rates as reconstructed by and played back through the particular DAC you are using. This is an important distinction because we cannot assume that every DAC will reconstruct different sample rate signals in precisely the same manner.

The fact that frequencies at or extremely close to the Nyquist limit cannot be perfectly played back is the main reason why the CD standard does not sample at exactly 40kHz in order to be able to reproduce sounds at 20kHz - you need some buffer or "wiggle room" above that for the reconstruction filter, because the filter cannot immediately "slam on the brakes" by letting frequencies up to 20kHz through and then attenuating frequencies starting at 20.0000000001kHz by the necessary 70 or more dB to prevent them from audibly aliasing into the audible band.

A sample rate of 44.1kz enables the recording of frequencies up to 22.05kHz, thereby providing 2.05kHz of room above 20kHz for the reconstruction filter to start attenuating out-of-band signals.

Modern reconstruction filters are perfectly capable of doing this with no audible distortion or other ill effects - BUT, for a number of reasons many DACs use "slower" filters that do not attenuate signals above 20kHz very quickly and in some cases do not attenuate them very much (perhaps 40-60dB).

Since aliased frequencies "mirror" into the audible range, higher sample rates can potentially make it less critical to use sharp, fast filters. For example, if you have a sound at, say, 25kHz and you are using a 44.1kHz sample rate, and your DAC's reconstruction filter does not attenuate out-of-band signals enough, then a low-volume version of that 25kHz frequency is going to be played back through your DAC and into your amp and speakers - but it won't be played back at 25kHz. It will alias at a frequency of about 19kHz. The reason is that 25kHz is just about 3kHz above the 22.05kHz Nyquist limit of a 44.1kHz sample rate. And 19kHz is just about 3kHz BELOW that same Nyquist limit. That's what aliasing is: frequencies above the Nyquist limit that improperly make it though the reconstruction filter will be output in the analogue section of the DAC as frequencies below the Nyquist limit, since those are the only valid frequencies for that sample rate - and the incorrect frequency will be set as a "mirror" of the original one, with center point of the "mirror" being the Nyquist frequency.

So... if you have, say, a 96kHz sample rate, then you can sample all the way up to 48kHz. That 25kHz sound in the recording will get passed through the DAC as 25kHz - so it will be accurate to the original recording, and most importantly it will be above the audible range of human hearing so it will have zero impact on the audible sound. And if there is, say, a 51kHz sound on the recording somehow, and the reconstruction filter improperly lets it through, it will alias into the DAC's output at 45kHz (because both 51kHz and 45kHz are 3kHz away from the Nyquist limit of 48kHz). But it won't matter because 45kHz is still way outside the audible range.

With all that said, however, it is extremely unlikely that anyone - especially any adult over the age of about 20 - is going to hear a 19kHz alias of a 25kHz signal fed through a DAC decoding a 44.1kHz sample-rate signal. We just don't hear up to 19kHz in most cases, and even those of us who do hear that high are not in most cases going to be able to detect an aliased 19kHz signal if it's attenuated by even 40dB, let alone 60 or 70dB or whatever, since all human hearing, even among people who can hear to 20kHz, gets a good deal less sensitive at frequencies that high.

One other factor is that ANY frequency in ANY sample rate recording can potentially created intermodulation distortion (IMD) when it mixes with other frequencies. This can be really unpredictable - for example a 49kHz signal mixed with a 52kHz signal will produce intermodulation at 52 minus 49 = 3kHz, which is smack in the middle of our most sensitive hearing range. In that sense a higher sample rate can let more frequencies through, which by themselves are useless to us since they are above the audible range, but can potentially create more IMD simply because it has all those extra frequencies in the signal.

So reconstruction filters can potentially have some impact on the sound, and that impact might be more or less audible depending on the sample rate used, because of where he aliased frequencies are in the spectrum, and also because of how much intermodulation distortion might end up in the playback.
 
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Frgirard

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Yes, there needs to be a reconstruction filter, and because of how they work and the practicalities of electronics, you cannot actually reconstruct a frequency at the exact Nyquist limit of your sample rate. With this in mind, it is important to note that if you are hearing differences, and if those differences could be consistently heard in a proper blind test, what you're hearing is not the differences in the sample rate per se. What you would be hearing would be differences in the sample rates as reconstructed by and played back through the particular DAC you are using. This is an important distinction because we cannot assume that every DAC will reconstruct different sample rate signals in precisely the same manner.

The fact that frequencies at or extremely close to the Nyquist limit cannot be perfectly played back is the main reason why the CD standard does not sample at exactly 40kHz in order to be able to reproduce sounds at 20kHz - you need some buffer or "wiggle room" above that for the reconstruction filter, because the filter cannot immediately "slam on the brakes" by letting frequencies up to 20kHz through and then attenuating frequencies starting at 20.0000000001kHz by the necessary 70 or more dB to prevent them from audibly aliasing into the audible band.

A sample rate of 44.1kz enables the recording of frequencies up to 22.05kHz, thereby providing 2.05kHz of room above 20kHz for the reconstruction filter to start attenuating out-of-band signals.

Modern reconstruction filters are perfectly capable of doing this with no audible distortion or other ill effects - BUT, for a number of reasons many DACs use "slower" filters that do not attenuate signals above 20kHz very quickly and in some cases do not attenuate them very much (perhaps 40-60dB).

Since aliased frequencies "mirror" into the audible range, higher sample rates can potentially make it less critical to use sharp, fast filters. For example, if you have a sound at, say, 25kHz and you are using a 44.1kHz sample rate, and your DAC's reconstruction filter does not attenuate out-of-band signals enough, then a low-volume version of that 25kHz frequency is going to be played back through your DAC and into your amp and speakers - but it won't be played back at 25kHz. It will alias at a frequency of about 19kHz. The reason is that 25kHz is just about 3kHz above the 22.05kHz Nyquist limit of a 44.1kHz sample rate. And 19kHz is just about 3kHz BELOW that same Nyquist limit. That's what aliasing is: frequencies above the Nyquist limit that improperly make it though the reconstruction filter will be output in the analogue section of the DAC as frequencies below the Nyquist limit, since those are the only valid frequencies for that sample rate - and the incorrect frequency will be set as a "mirror" of the original one, with center point of the "mirror" being the Nyquist frequency.

So... if you have, say, a 96kHz sample rate, then you can sample all the way up to 48kHz. That 25kHz sound in the recording will get passed through the DAC as 25kHz - so it will be accurate to the original recording, and most importantly it will be above the audible range of human hearing so it will have zero impact on the audible sound. And if there is, say, a 51kHz sound on the recording somehow, and the reconstruction filter improperly lets it through, it will alias into the DAC's output at 45kHz (because both 51kHz and 45kHz are 3kHz away from the Nyquist limit of 48kHz). But it won't matter because 45kHz is still way outside the audible range.

With all that said, however, it is extremely unlikely that anyone - especially any adult over the age of about 20 - is going to hear a 19kHz alias of a 25kHz signal fed through a DAC decoding a 44.1kHz sample-rate signal. We just don't hear up to 19kHz in most cases, and even those of us who do hear that high are not in most cases going to be able to detect an aliased 19kHz signal if it's attenuated by even 40dB, let alone 60 or 70dB or whatever, since all human hearing, even among people who can hear to 20kHz, gets a good deal less sensitive at frequencies that high.

One other factor is that ANY frequency in ANY sample rate recording can potentially created intermodulation distortion (IMD) when it mixes with other frequencies. This can be really unpredictable - for example a 49kHz signal mixed with a 52kHz signal will produce intermodulation at 52 minus 49 = 3kHz, which is smack in the middle of our most sensitive hearing range. In that sense a higher sample rate can let more frequencies through, which by themselves are useless to us since they are above the audible range, but can potentially create more IMD simply because it has all those extra frequencies in the signal.

So reconstruction filters can potentially have some impact on the sound, and that impact might be more or less audible depending on the sample rate used, because of where he aliased frequencies are in the spectrum, and also because of how much intermodulation distortion might end up in the playback.
We are no longer in the days of analog low pass filter.
Since several decades the FIR low pass filter have solved this problem.
You forgot the use of the oversampling
 

danadam

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Since aliased frequencies "mirror" into the audible range, higher sample rates can potentially make it less critical to use sharp, fast filters. For example, if you have a sound at, say, 25kHz and you are using a 44.1kHz sample rate, and your DAC's reconstruction filter does not attenuate out-of-band signals enough, then a low-volume version of that 25kHz frequency is going to be played back through your DAC and into your amp and speakers - but it won't be played back at 25kHz. It will alias at a frequency of about 19kHz. The reason is that 25kHz is just about 3kHz above the 22.05kHz Nyquist limit of a 44.1kHz sample rate. And 19kHz is just about 3kHz BELOW that same Nyquist limit. That's what aliasing is: frequencies above the Nyquist limit that improperly make it though the reconstruction filter will be output in the analogue section of the DAC as frequencies below the Nyquist limit, since those are the only valid frequencies for that sample rate - and the incorrect frequency will be set as a "mirror" of the original one, with center point of the "mirror" being the Nyquist frequency.
Er... that sounds more like you are describing ADC, not DAC.

Keeping with your example, ADC has an anti-alias filter to eliminate 25 kHz, because without the filter (or if it is too shallow), if you try to sample such signal 44'100 per second, the resulting samples will look like they represent 19 kHz signal.

DAC has a reconstruction (or anti-imaging) filter, to remove images above Fs/2 that show up during the conversion. If the samples represent 19 kHz signal, then during the conversion to analog you get the 19 kHz and in addition a 25 kHz image. The job of the reconstruction filter is to remove that image. Without the filter (or if it is too shallow), those additional high frequencies may produce IMD in the lower frequencies.

But as @Frgirard mentioned, nowadays oversampling is used, so the "actual" conversion from/to analog always happen at high sampling rate, even if you choose the intermediate result to be stored at 44.1 kHz.
 

tmtomh

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Er... that sounds more like you are describing ADC, not DAC.

Keeping with your example, ADC has an anti-alias filter to eliminate 25 kHz, because without the filter (or if it is too shallow), if you try to sample such signal 44'100 per second, the resulting samples will look like they represent 19 kHz signal.

DAC has a reconstruction (or anti-imaging) filter, to remove images above Fs/2 that show up during the conversion. If the samples represent 19 kHz signal, then during the conversion to analog you get the 19 kHz and in addition a 25 kHz image. The job of the reconstruction filter is to remove that image. Without the filter (or if it is too shallow), those additional high frequencies may produce IMD in the lower frequencies.

But as @Frgirard mentioned, nowadays oversampling is used, so the "actual" conversion from/to analog always happen at high sampling rate, even if you choose the intermediate result to be stored at 44.1 kHz.

Thanks for the correction and further explanation - much appreciated! Clearly I was misapplying the principle to the given scenario.
 
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