Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[Audiofire]

The needle is not stupid. And it is not simply creating an electrical signal. It is creating sound, as well as acting as a transducer.

When I pull out my violin and play a solo fugue by Bartok or Bach, I sure hope you don't call me stupid.

We can get into a discussion on different philosophies of music ("arrangement" genres like classical and rock, and improvisatory music like jazz and some avant garde), but that is for another time (and place, most likely).

I view my tonearms as colleagues, analogous to me recording myself performing written music. In fact, I have learned more about my bow arm from working on tonearms in the past decade, than any viola guru or treatise.

No, you overlooked that the stylus did not compose and record the music. You are right that an expensive cartridge is generally better sound quality. But it has nothing to do with the source of the recording.

It is better to skip the whole analog manufacturing that introduces distortions and such limitations.

 

[fuse]

No, you overlooked that the stylus did not compose and record the music. You are right that an expensive cartridge is generally better sound quality. But it has nothing to do with the source of the recording.

It is better to skip the whole analog manufacturing that introduces distortions and such limitations.

Again, you are stuck on an erroneous and limited view of music. I did not compose the Bach g minor fugue for solo violin, so if I play it I am stupid? This is the inevitable outcome of your statements.

And I never mentioned cheap vs expensive cartridges, not sure why you added that.

 

[Robin L]

The needle is not stupid. And it is not simply creating an electrical signal. It is creating sound, as well as acting as a transducer.

The tip of the needle is a rock. That rock is dragged through a groove. That rock is as stupid as a rock. Attach it to one end of a cantilever and stick magnets on the other end of the cantilever and you've got an electric generator with very low output. That's amplified and sent to your speakers. There is nothing remotely "AI" about the process, it's a century old.

 

[Vacceo]

Again, you are stuck on an erroneous and limited view of music. I did not compose the Bach g minor fugue for solo violin, so if I play it I am stupid? This is the inevitable outcome of your statements.

And I never mentioned cheap vs expensive cartridges, not sure why you added that.

You give music too much credit. It is just sound with a pattern. That sound with a pattern is printed on grooves or translated to 0's and 1's which are then pushed towards amplification of the waves and sent to a speaker.

There is nothing sublime about it. It is wonderful, as Darwin wrote in his last two paragraphs of The Origin of Species, because of how something so simple can create such complex phenomena.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

The needle is not stupid. And it is not simply creating an electrical signal. It is creating sound, as well as acting as a transducer.

I have no idea whether a DAC is smart or stupid, but I remember a team of robotics engineers saying they felt the robots' mechanical abilities came first, and as these improved, their intelligence improved. Walking then talking.

When I pull out my violin and play a solo fugue by Bartok or Bach, I sure hope you don't call me stupid.

We can get into a discussion on different philosophies of music ("arrangement" genres like classical and rock, and improvisatory music like jazz and some avant garde), but that is for another time (and place, most likely).

I view my tonearms as colleagues, analogous to me recording myself performing written music. In fact, I have learned more about my bow arm from working on tonearms in the past decade, than any viola guru or treatise.

If a stylus is actually creating sound on its own, it is working very improperly. It's only job is to move either the magnet or coil at the other end.

 

[sq225917]

I have a decent vinyl setup, benz lp cart, Paradise phono stage designed by Joachim Gerhard, built by me with snr over 86db - as good as it gets for MC, my tt is a kuzma stabi S with 12" arm and an optical tacho controlled speed controller. Short of maglev air bearing decks it doesn't really get any better from a measurement pov.

I have a £600 Gustard A18 dac playing into a pre90 and Nuerochrome amps. Technically I'm a hair short of SOTA any way you wish to measure it.

Some records sound better than the cd's, but far more cd's sound better than the vinyl.

I'd actually say vinyl is my primary source, certainly in terms of money spent on the gear and on music. I love the physical artifact, I love the romance, I've owned a TT for 40 years. But by every none biased metric its just not better, plain and simple. At best it's capable of just over 12 bits of resolution and in terms of timing accuracy it's two orders of magnitude worse than cd quality digital.

Sure some people prefer the sound, I have one friend who has no digital source at all, just an amazing diy tt that puts any manufactured stuff to shame. He's totally wedded to it. But that doesn't change the fact that technically it's a poorer solution than even a $100 cd player.

 

[sTEEVEE]

I'm thinking subsonics also have a part in that subjective experience, which IMHO flow right through from the cartridge to the loudspeakers in an all analog system. Not so much with digital me thinks...

 

[antcollinet]

I'm thinking subsonics also have a part in that subjective experience, which IMHO flow right through from the cartridge to the loudspeakers in an all analog system. Not so much with digital me thinks...

Why do you think subsonics flow in any way differently from sonics - or even ultrasonics?

Why do you think flow from cartridge to loudspeakers is in anyway different than from DAC to loudspeakers?


And how do you think "flow" from recording through the delivery mechanism - vinyl pressing/manufacturing or digital stream/CD - to cartridge or DAC differs? Particularly in relation to those subsonics you seem so keen on?

 

[j_j]

Well, let's not forget the lossy euphonic distortions of LP.

You may prefer it, and you get to prefer it, but that doesn't make it better, and your imagining about "making music" is one of the more odd anthropomorphic ideas I've seen lately.

 

[rdenney]

The needle is not stupid. And it is not simply creating an electrical signal. It is creating sound, as well as acting as a transducer.

I have no idea whether a DAC is smart or stupid, but I remember a team of robotics engineers saying they felt the robots' mechanical abilities came first, and as these improved, their intelligence improved. Walking then talking.

When I pull out my violin and play a solo fugue by Bartok or Bach, I sure hope you don't call me stupid.

We can get into a discussion on different philosophies of music ("arrangement" genres like classical and rock, and improvisatory music like jazz and some avant garde), but that is for another time (and place, most likely).

I view my tonearms as colleagues, analogous to me recording myself performing written music. In fact, I have learned more about my bow arm from working on tonearms in the past decade, than any viola guru or treatise.

So, does your bow possess intelligence, or do its qualities simply allow you to more fully express your own? If the former, what would it do in the hands of an untalented beginner?

Rick “whose tuba is a usefully shaped hunk of brass” Denney

 

[movehome]

I just go for whatever is the best version (or one of the good versions if there are multiple) of an album if I can find it. If it's the vinyl mastering then a vinyl transfer is the best option. Otherwise I find the best digital version.

I used to use my turntable more often but now that I have cats it's pretty difficult. I'd at least get cat hair all over my records.

 

[fuse]

If a stylus is actually creating sound on its own, it is working very improperly. It's only job is to move either the magnet or coil at the other end.

Every single stylus is making "its own sound" just some are undetectable to our ears. If it is very audible something is wrong, but no stylus is actually silent.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Every single stylus is making "its own sound" just some are undetectable to our ears. If it is very audible something is wrong, but no stylus is actually silent.

Data to back that up?

 

[fuse]

So, does your bow possess intelligence, or do its qualities simply allow you to more fully express your own? If the former, what would it do in the hands of an untalented beginner?

Rick “whose tuba is a usefully shaped hunk of brass” Denney

Yes, a properly made bow contains a certain intelligence, in terms of its abilities to do its job (vibrate a string, and interact between the bow hand and the string/instrument).

Yes, the well-made (intelligent) bow will move in an optimum fashion with a beginner, and react in an optimum way to the often conflicting forces of gravity, mass, and arm weight.

Too bad you denigrate your tuba to being simply a "hunk of brass"! Having a more cooperative, interactive approach might prove productive?

 

[fuse]

Data to back that up?

It is vibrating with frequencies in the audible band, and I know of no absolutely inert substances on earth, so I assume every single stylus makes sound when traversing a modulated groove. But an interesting question, however much in bad faith; I would assume if there is no data available, it would be because most people involved also assume all stylii and cantilevers produce sound, and it is only a matter of which materials, design and production methods create the least amount of sound and resonance.

 

[Vacceo]

I'm thinking subsonics also have a part in that subjective experience, which IMHO flow right through from the cartridge to the loudspeakers in an all analog system. Not so much with digital me thinks...

BS. Most speakers cannot play sub bass, even less below 20 Hz. Only a few subwoofers play a serious amount of infrasonics at high SPL.

That has nothing to do with analog or digital.

 

[fuse]

BS. Most speakers cannot play sub bass, even less below 20 Hz. Only a few subwoofers play a serious amount of infrasonics at high SPL.

That has nothing to do with analog or digital.

Do we really know the psychoacoustic effects well enough, of phenomena like woofer pumping and barely audible subsonic frequencies (and supersonic) to simply write off subsonics cart blanche? There are people who think the low frequencies found in groove noise does contribute to the favourable response of some to the "vinyl sound". Not sure where I read that and if any experiments have actually been carried out to disprove this but it is an interesting thought.

 

[rdenney]

Yes, a properly made bow contains a certain intelligence, in terms of its abilities to do its job (vibrate a string, and interact between the bow hand and the string/instrument).

Yes, the well-made (intelligent) bow will move in an optimum fashion with a beginner, and react in an optimum way to the often conflicting forces of gravity, mass, and arm weight.

Too bad you denigrate your tuba to being simply a "hunk of brass"! Having a more cooperative, interactive approach might prove productive?

No. Turning the instrument into a sentient being is antithetical to being an artist in control of one’s tools.

Tuba players who chase instruments and mouthpieces spend a lot of money and in the end have the same problems. We all hope to find the one that fits our objectives perfectly, but a lot who chase them don’t really have objectives other than to be “better.”

Rick “instruments are engineering, but a good one is a wondrous thing” Denney

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

It is vibrating with frequencies in the audible band, and I know of no absolutely inert substances on earth, so I assume every single stylus makes sound when traversing a modulated groove. But an interesting question, however much in bad faith; I would assume if there is no data available, it would be because most people involved also assume all stylii and cantilevers produce sound, and it is only a matter of which materials, design and production methods create the least amount of sound and resonance.

I think you'd better do some basic study on how transducers work.

 

[fuse]

No. Turning the instrument into a sentient being is antithetical to being an artist in control of one’s tools.

Tuba players who chase instruments and mouthpieces spend a lot of money and in the end have the same problems. We all hope to find the one that fits our objectives perfectly, but a lot who chase them don’t really have objectives other than to be “better.”

Rick “instruments are engineering, but a good one is a wondrous thing” Denney

I would then ask you to define "intelligence"? Matter does not have an intelligence, to you? Only the organization known as the human mind, has intelligence?

Agreed, about the pitfalls of chasing gear. But to not treat whatever tools you have, without the proper respect, seems like a form a arrogance.

Kenji "control is an illusion of the fearful" Fuse