Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[audio2design]

I have been backing up to 1 TB thumb drives and storing in a remote location. Is there any data or simulations on the expected life of data stored on flash memory? I don't know but guess EMP is the biggest threat.

Flash memory is not an archival format. It decays, and decays faster at high temp. Could fail just sitting there in <10 years.

 

[audio2design]

University loses 77TB of research data due to backup error

The Kyoto University in Japan has lost about 77TB of research data due to an error in the backup system of its Hewlett-Packard supercomputer.

www.bleepingcomputer.com

77 terabytes of research data lost in faulty data backup.

Oops!

Big oops ... I triple backup. Active on the computer. Local backup hard drive, and cloud storage live, and the cloud storage is mirror locations and has versioning (saved my ass a few times).

 

[Sal1950]

I remember now, that is a Well Tempered tone arm. The wires from the cartridge would have wrapped around the wires coming out the side to an interface box where the RCA output plugs would be. That looks like a Well Tempered TT too from the looks of it.

That's it, you nailed it. Thanks D.
I think the estate is looking to get rid of it along with a stack of Classe electronics and more.
To bad it's all fallen into a sad state.

 

[Blumlein 88]

That's it, you nailed it. Thanks D.
I think the estate is looking to get rid of it along with a stack of Classe electronics and more.
To bad it's all fallen into a sad state.

The good news is parts are available and probably you'd need to replace the main bearing.
Also Classe electronics if not ruined by the exposure are pretty nice. I've used some of their big DR25 amps, and they made top notch preamps.

 

[soundwave76]

Watching this augmented reality will make vinyl sound even better

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1280081064413794309

 

[JJB70]

I think the root of these debates is conflating what we like with what is objectively better. And it is entirely possible to embrace what is better whilst retaining a liking for an older obsolete technology. For example my daily wear is a Huawei GT2 smart watch, it is absolutely accurate and has functionality so far ahead of any conventional watch it would be absurd to even try and argue which is "better". However I view my smart watch as just an appliance, I love my mechanical watches and if push came to shove would keep a mechanical watch in preference to any smart watch. The advantages of digital cameras are another example. Digital image capture transformed photography and I struggle to imagine any coherent argument in support of film. Yet I retain a love for film cameras and no digital camera gets anywhere close to the Contax RTS series, Nikon F,F2,FM2, Topcon Super D etc in my heart.
So in the case of music reproduction I have zero issue with anyone liking and preferring records. That's a personal choice and preference and as with any preference it is what it is. I find something profoundly arrogant and distasteful when people try to insist the preferences of others are wrong. I don't mean the normal banter of the "you like that?!" between friends but the "I am right, you are wrong" type of insistence. However, to argue that records are better than digital is different, yes you can say you prefer vinyl and there's nothing wrong with that but to try and argue they are better is a denial of engineering and technical reality.
Saying something is better is not a proxy for preference, and preference should not be conflated with objective evaluation.

 

[kiwifi]

"Why do records sound so much better than digital?"

They don't! End of...

 

[Digby]

Oh, brother, yes, it is appeal to authority, RELEVANT, ACTUAL authority, not some guy on the internet. As to your talking about cell phone dropout, tell me, then, what do you think the raw transmission error rate is when you start to get deep fades on the cell phone, but you can still talk?

Do tell, what's the raw error rate on that phone? You say "any errors at all". You have no idea what actually happens.

Do you know that at least one of the old DAR systems could support up to 25% bit errors WITHOUT ANY DATA DELIVERY ERROR? Do you know what an ECC is? Ever hear of Reed-Solomon coding? Or oversampled Reed-Solomon coding? How about trellis, punctured trellis, etc. There are many more, I haven't done anything around a modem since 2002, but it's clear you don't understand the basics.

I don't know what any of that is, none at all - and yet I still think the point I made stands. Digital is fragile in ways that analogue is not (or not as fragile, if you want to nit pick). Digital and analogue degrade differently and that much analogue media (records/books) will likely outlive digital; yes with damage, yes with imperfection, but data contained on that analogue media will be more readily retrievable and usable than that from digital media, when stored over long periods (10s/100s of years), unless said digital storage media is maintained in way analogue is not (changing formats, multiple backups, converting from obsolete formats to current ones - you get the picture).

I can read a 100 year old book with relative ease, will people in the future be able to do so with a 100 year old hard drive or DVD-R (just as two examples).

That is the point I was making in my first post here:

Why do records sound so much better than digital?

You are wrong on many levels. Its technically not lossless. By that logic, recording a CD (like a cassette tape) is "lossless". I think you missed the point. I believe the person is saying that a capture of whatever is played, with "satisfying" sounds on an LP, by a digital recording, looses...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You are arguing against half-hearted technical points I make, but I'm not talking technicalities, but practicalities or reality.

If you want to argue technical details, then I concede immediately, but then why bother posting. If a discussion cannot be had with someone about details other than purely technical ones, what is the point of posting on this forum? How many posters here will be able to match your technical knowledge, not I and not many others, but I wasn't even pretending to argue on that level.

If you want a discussion about something other than pure technical points, please respond to the last two paragraphs of this post:

Why do records sound so much better than digital?

One of my objections to vinyl is that it is just not suited to a lot of the music I listen to. The move to digital was hugely liberating for classical music enthusiasts as the overwhelming majority of symphonic recordings fit on a single CD and even longer works were a lot easier than if using...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If not, I concede to your greater technical knowledge. You win the debate, where I would have preferred a discussion; you won before it started, by arguing not against the thrust of my argument, but technical details of which you obviously have superior knowledge. On that count, I cannot possibly win, but I wasn't really looking to win as such, more just have a stimulating discussion.

Yours, some guy on the internet.

 

[Blumlein 88]

For you guys harping on digital shortcomings in regard to archival storage, you are correct on several points. I'm absolutely certain however the world isn't going back. Just like we didn't backtrack from paper and parchment to stone tablets. Digital data has too many other advantages and will be adapted as needed and as possible.

Maybe it will be stored as artificial DNA which has already been done experimentally. Or maybe some artificial crystalline matrix of high stability not yet developed. But the future better or worse for information is digital until something better comes along, and I don't see anything analog based being the replacement.

 

[danadam]

Digital and analogue degrade differently and that much analogue media (records/books) will likely outlive digital; yes with damage, yes with imperfection, but data contained on that analogue media will be more readily retrievable and usable than that from digital media

Digital has error correction codes. At the point when it visibly/audibly degrades, it already had plenty of errors that it seamlessly fixed. How do you know that analog would still contain anything recognizable at all, with the same amount of errors?

will people in the future be able to do so with a 100 year old hard drive or DVD-R (just as two examples).

And will they be able to do so with records on magnetic tapes, for example? If yes, why would we forget how to read digital medium but still remember how to read analog one?

 

[Digby]

Digital has error correction codes. At the point when it visibly/audibly degrades, it already had plenty of errors that it seamlessly fixed. How do you know that analog would still contain anything recognizable at all, with the same amount of errors?


And will they be able to do so with records on magnetic tapes, for example? If yes, why would we forget how to read digital medium but still remember how to read analog one?

1st point, see rdenney's post here:

Why do records sound so much better than digital?

One of my objections to vinyl is that it is just not suited to a lot of the music I listen to. The move to digital was hugely liberating for classical music enthusiasts as the overwhelming majority of symphonic recordings fit on a single CD and even longer works were a lot easier than if using...

www.audiosciencereview.com

about the difference between his ability to watch a less than optimal signal, analogue TV vs digital TV.

2nd point, it is not about knowing how to read the information, it is about whether the information is not corrupt or the hdd you try to spin up after 100 years doesn't self-destruct in some fashion (plenty of examples of people spinning up old commodore drives from 30 years ago and they go pop!).

 

[audio2design]

Lifetime of stamped CDs has been estimated to be on average about 775 years based on accelerated testing. That beats tape by a large margin. Vinyl too I expect. Good luck with your average book at that age. Anything with a bit of optical resolution can read it.

 

[danadam]

plenty of examples of people spinning up old commodore drives from 30 years ago and they go pop

Hard drives are a bit different thing, because this is a medium (disk platter) integrated with a reader (all the mechanical parts that read it). I think that trying to read an old analog medium on equally old player which wasn't maintained properly, could end up with similarly bad results.

 

[rdenney]

For you guys harping on digital shortcomings in regard to archival storage, you are correct on several points. I'm absolutely certain however the world isn't going back. Just like we didn't backtrack from paper and parchment to stone tablets. Digital data has too many other advantages and will be adapted as needed and as possible.

Maybe it will be stored as artificial DNA which has already been done experimentally. Or maybe some artificial crystalline matrix of high stability not yet developed. But the future better or worse for information is digital until something better comes along, and I don't see anything analog based being the replacement.

Oh, completely agree, unless the balloon goes up, in which case I won’t care.

But if we have the library already, it pleases me to preserve its value by being able to use it.

I seem to be drawn to the challenge of making older technologies work as well as possible. It’s fun. As has been said in this thread about 500 times already, nobody but the long-gone OP is doing it to explore the state of the art, but rather to explore the state of that art.

I do the same with amateur radio. Who cares in a cell-phone world about sky wave propagation? Nobody—until for whatever reason satellites and cellular infrastructure are no longer available. Turns out, that happens often enough to be worth preserving the skill of HF propagation, even if just for the satisfaction of doing it well.

Obviously, some are incapable of understanding that it’s possible to be scientific and data-driven about obsolete technologies as much as about innovative technologies.

Rick “can’t fix that” Denney

 

[rdenney]

Hard drives are a bit different thing, because this is a medium (disk platter) integrated with a reader (all the mechanical parts that read it). I think that trying to read an old analog medium on equally old player which wasn't maintained properly, could end up with similarly bad results.

Sure. But it’s easier for mortals to fix the turntable. (And, based on my recent experience, the open-reel deck.)

Rick “not poking his tools into a dead old hard disk” Denney

 

[rdenney]

No I didn't, I was referring to the Audiophool media and builders of snake-oil gear,
and you know it. Quit the whining.


Coming right up, hold your breath. LOL
Can't wait to read what your next silly little quip will be to close your next post.

There's a small bit of truth to your post, but very small.
The thing with speakers, all else equal, is they're scalable. For a desktop system or a very small room, with appropriate subwoofers, they can perform well enough. Once the room size gets beyond X cuft they rapidly run out of gas.
Just like with vinyl, the measurements will tell the final story on it's appropriateness for a job at hand.

Well, I can’t get my LPs to fit into either my CD player or my computer. So, I conclude that for the job of playing some of the music I already happen to own, those technologies absolutely suck.

Rick “but we can’t all be like you” Denney

 

[Sal1950]

And the squashed hockey puck BS continues.
For all the yapping about how much fun the old tech is, where's your Edison cylinder players?

 

[JJB70]

And the squashed hockey puck BS continues.
For all the yapping about how much fun the old tech is, where's your Edison cylinder players?

As someone who used to have to start lifeboat and emergency air compressor engines using hand crank starting as part of of weekly routines I have to say that is one old technology I have absolutely no warm feelings for. You learn very quickly to hold the handle in a way to minimise the risk of broken thumbs and wrists as the kickback from a diesel can be brutal.

 

[levimax]

And the squashed hockey puck BS continues.
For all the yapping about how much fun the old tech is, where's your Edison cylinder players?

some people prefer vinyl some prefer digital and some have fun trolling .... there is no scientific accounting for preferenes

 

[Sal1950]

Oh the glorious "direct to disc" analog fidelity.
You guys are missing out on so much!