Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[mhardy6647]

Apparently, to be SOTA your bike now needs to be a stegosaurus!

View attachment 222804

Ducati debuts ‘Stegosaurus’ aero in British MotoGP practice

www.autosport.com

Not for me, thanks!

... and needs lots of different colo(u)rs! Wonder how much weight all that sponsorship adds?

 

[Newman]

But my overarching, high-level point is that @Sal1950 chooses his motorcycle not based on its performance, not on how well it actually functions at its task, but on whether it will "get him laid." Hey - more power to him. But to hear him denigrate vinyl based on - what - technical specifications? is irony at the cosmic level.

No irony at all IMHO.

You are conflating two things that have different reasons for existence.

A motorcycle provides an original thing: transport from origin to destination. The qualities of that experience are its own original thing. Like an instrument playing music.

A home audio system provides a copy of an original thing (which BTW is actually the creative production made in the mastering studio). It’s a copier. If what we care about is the music, and not just worship of look-and-feel of some technology of gear, then we will pursue the accuracy of the copy as being the better way to choose audio gear.

It’s like a photocopier. Should @Sal1950 choose his photocopier based on anything other than how accurately it copies? Should he choose it based on its having big visible rotating paper rollers that look very cool as they roll the paper, regardless of whether the copy that comes out the end is blurred or smudged or wrong colours? Could you call him a cosmic ironist for picking his photocopier based on how accurately it copies? Of course not!

(PS Welcome to ASR, newbie!)

 

[MattHooper]

Newman you are simply assuming a single, particular goal for an audio system, which misses the point Doctor Big (and many others) made.

What any individual wants out of his audio system is up to him.

Just like with a choice of transportation.

If I ASSUME that everyone's goal MUST BE the safest, most reliable and useful form of transportation for all weather, then a motorcycle is not
going to meet that goal.

But of course, that just ignores that there is a lot more to choosing a form of transportation than only that goal. Someone, for instance, who gets joy out of the very specific sense of road feel, being open to the elements...and whatever-the-hell-else-it-is that riders like...may not be much enthused at all about getting in a box with wheels for a trip to the countryside. But riding a motorcycle compels them to get out on the thing and ride. They experience transportation differently on a bike. That's the form of transportation they find engaging.

Our music systems are a form of musical transportation systems. If it isn't about being compelled to listen to music on the system, what's it all for?

You may "get there" by having as accurate a system as you can. Which is fine.

But others get there in other ways.

Regarding his vinyl set up, Doctor Big explained: "TO MY EARS it's far superior in its task, which is to make me want to consciously listen to music."

So for him his choice of vinyl best performs the task he set for his audio system. A perfectly rational choice.

(My hi-fi system is far more accurate than my wife's laptop or our kitchen smart speaker. But my system is not the route for my wife's connection to music. She simply has no interest in sitting in a sweet spot to listen. Instead, music playing on her laptop, or the smart speaker or in the car, are how she is transported by the music. For me to say "sorry, you are doing it wrong" would be, to say the least, uncomprehending of the differences in how people enjoy music).

 

[Newman]

Oh I didn't miss any point. I'm just sticking to primary and not secondary. Something you may be missing?

eg someone might be a record collector and good on them, perfectly valid, but that's not what records are made for.

And we have all been over how perfectly valid it is to choose vinyl if one's cognitive biases prevent one from experiencing vinyl as flawed and digital as not flawed, but that has little to do with getting the sound waves right. Primary vs secondary.

Our newbie friend may be new to these concepts, and also may still think his experience of 'vinyl sound' is all in the sound waves. Worth pointing out early IMHO.

Finally, what you seem to have missed was that my post was focused on how Sal's choices in two hobbies are not inconsistent to the point of irony, and why. THAT was the point of my post, not whether there is only one goal for anyone into home audio -- which surely you couldn't have been serious if you thought that was my claim...maybe someone missed the point?

 

[MattHooper]

eg someone might be a record collector and good on them, but that's not what records are made for.

Records, typically, are made to be listened to. Yes?

That's what Doctor Big does.

Again, as usual, you are conflating a particular goal "accurate reproduction of the recorded signal" with what people get out of listening to music in general, or listening to music on their audio system in particular.

You continually stake your audio arguments on "The Purpose Is X" in a way that does not recognize that "purpose" is entirely dependent on people's goals, which vary.

Just as they do for transportation. If a motorcycle enthusiast owns a car as well, and he has to get from A to B, his choice will often be based on what he wants to get out of the experience. Does he just want a tool that gets him from A to B quickly and with no fuss? He may hop in his car. Does he want to increase his enjoyment of traveling from A to B? Then, while it may take a bit more fuss (getting the motorcycle out of the garge, suited up, helmet whatever), it will be worth it because that's what gets him to truly enjoy the ride.

Just like the vinyl enthusiast may use digital when convenient, but will find vinyl as another choice is "worth the extra fuss" when he wants to be even more directly engaged in listening.

Thinking "The Only Way Of Listening To Music Is To Hear The Most Accurate Copy Of The Signal" is just blinkered thinking. You can't just arbitrarily ignore that listening to music has the same variables as anything else, like the choice of vehicle that increases someone's enthusiasm.

The choice of tool affects the experience, which means the tool may vary between users. Which makes various approaches reasonable. Audio does not live inside a bubble making it immune to these facts.

 

[levimax]

The Harley analogy is better than most... for those that have never ridden one, while certainly not SOTA, for taking a ride down the highway on a nice sunny day they are more than up to the task. The low reving long stroke engine has lots of torque so no need for a lot of shifting and the weight makes them very stable if the wind is blowing. The reality is 1940's technology is all you need for a great motorcycle experience and it is a different experience that a modern design provides. For a lot of music, especially music recorded decades ago, a TT is all you really need and like a Harley it is a different experience than digital playback.

 

[Sal1950]

You continually stake your audio arguments on "The Purpose Is X" in a way that does not recognize that "purpose" is entirely dependent on people's goals, which vary.

You continually miss that the purpose of a High Fidelity system IS to reproduce the sound of the source.
It's the goal that engineers have been working towards since Edison.
And SOTA refers to accomplishing that chore in as perfect a way as possible.
It's definable and measurable.

Motorcycles have many goals and SOTA's involved. Cruiser, Dirt, Rocket, On/Off road, etc, etc etc.
There isn't any one SOTA in motorcycling, it's whatever the rider wants/needs it to be.

Of course none of this has any real purpose outside of Matt trying to bust my balls over my choice of rides.
If your a real motorcyclist, it's not what you ride, it's the fact that you either ride or you don't.
2 Wheels (the inverted peace sign) is the salute we give each other as we pass on the road,
no matter the type or style of bike.

 

[MattHooper]

You continually miss that the purpose of a High Fidelity system IS to reproduce the sound of the source.

Like Newman, you won't acknowledge that purposes vary. That includes among engineers, among audio manufacturers, and among consumers of audio gear.

It's the goal that engineers have been working towards since Edison.

The original goal of most playback, since Edison, was fidelity to the sound of real voices and instruments. Pure sonic realism. Is that your goal?
(It's not the goal of many on ASR, who think that's ridiculous...so they have a different goal).

Please remember: the argument has never been that vinyl is SOTA, hence it has nothing to do with the "fidelity" argument but simply about preference and choice and the goals anyone has for his system. And a non-SOTA (in terms of technical accuracy) vinyl system fulfills many people's goal for listening to music. Just like your choice of a non-SOTA vehicle (partly on it's long heritage) give you your jollies.

If I want to go for a drive the last thing I'd choose is a Harley because I don't like riding motorcycles and I truly f*cking hate loud motorcycles. That would be a stupid choice for me. But it would be the RIGHT choice for you because you like it. There's no rule that "People have to ride Harley's" as their transportation; people have choices which suit their taste. Likewise there is no rule that "People have to listen to music on a SOTA system with a digital source." Most artists creating the content don't insist on it. Most engineers mastering the content don't insist on it. The choice of how to listen to the music, and on what type of system, is left up to the consumer. Whatever suits that consumer's goal for listening to music. Like the choice of which vehicle to use for transportation.

If listening to a vinyl rig gets someone to that blissful state in music listening, that system has done it's job. It's the right choice FOR THEM, even if not for you. And if there could be said to be anything musicians want above all else, it's to have their music listened to, however a person will enjoy it most.

(Again: if most artists and recording engineers demanded people have SOTA gear and sit listening in the sweet spot to ensure a perfectly accurate impression of the signal....they'd have limited their audience severely, as few people actually enjoy their music like that, or care about such gear. That's why the choice is left up to the consumer, how to consume the music. If any particular audiophile wants to do it that way, that's fine. It's not a Rule Written In To The Universe, or in music production, or music reproduction, or anything else).

 

[-Matt-]

 

[Sal1950]

 

[-Matt-]

If the "product" in question is all motorycles in general then rear winglets are perhaps the most recent technological development (unveiled this weekend).

Sal breaks it down into sub-categories and defines a separate SOTA for cruiser motorcycles. (Ride whatever makes you happy, riding is all about that freedom - not busting anyones balls over their preferred vehicle).

...but by the same line of argument it could be said that a turntable is the state of the art "device for musical reproduction that relies upon mechanical moving parts and simultaneously provides visual stimulus via a rotating disk".

In the quote marks I've just defined a new product sub-category. And before anyone suggests one of these...

...it has inferior visual impact relative to a turntable because of the smaller size and higher rpm of the rotating disks!

EDIT: The point of this is that I prefer a more strict definition of SOTA that refers to outright performance - hence cannot personally consider vinyl or Harley Davidsons to be truely SOTA.

Confusingly Sal seems to apply the strict definition of SOTA to audio, but applies different criteria to motorcycles. Fair enough, we each have our own priorities that determine our preferences; and can have different priorities in different areas.

But back to the original topic - the OP says that vinyl sounds better to them (several others seem to agree) and ask why? (I don't think SOTA performance was claimed for vinyl, and we can't deny them their personal perception). However, as measurements readily demonstrate that digital audio outperforms vinyl, the answer must be a psychoacoustic one. Hence the mention of visual stimulus, which I think has a lot to do with it, combined with the tactile feel and ritual of handling the records.

For non-motorcyle enthusiasts, perhaps the analogy between vinyl and luxury mechanical watches is preferred?

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

At least, does anyone agree that Vinyl is a veritable pit of snake oil?
The spinner, the mount, the arm, the cartridge. Beyond that, endless amounts of "improvers", cleaners, disc life extenders. In fairness, as a self respecting LP12 owner, I've just got to have a six thousand dollar device to tell me if my records have the hole dead in the centre!
Really, after all the faffing about, aren't vinylistas so exhausted by the time the disc is on, they generally fall asleep and are awakened by the stylus thumping endlessly in the middle of the disc.
With those noughts and ones, it is just switch on, adjust volume and sink into perfect Bach, Beethoven, or indeed Presley or Cochran!

 

[Bob from Florida]

At least, does anyone agree that Vinyl is a veritable pit of snake oil?

No more or less snake oil than anything else in audio. It does not matter what you pick - DACs, preamps, amps, cables, turntables, speakers, etc. Each category has questionable products with claims of "improving" your sound. Turntables and speakers are two examples of transducers. Mechanical to electrical - turntable, arm, cartridge then electrical to mechanical - cabinet, stuffing, speaker drivers, crossover. The electronics in between has less audible effect on playback - assuming proper matching on inputs and outputs. Turntables give an audio enthusiast a lot of opportunities to make changes that have impact on the sound quality.

 

[ferrellms]

You obviously aren't listening under the same conditions I am.

edit: quoted the wrong post the first time and it made no sense.

Or under the same subjective prejudice.

 

[A Surfer]

Vinyl is inferior by far at sonic fidelity, but that doesn't mean some people won't still prefer it. Good for them. Personally, a world without records won't bother me, but I have no desire to purge the world of them either. To each their own. I hear vinyl at my brothers all the time, he loves it. It is nice and all, but I'll take my digital source any day of the week, and I grew up on vinyl, 8 track and cassette.

 

[Doctor Big]

You continually miss that the purpose of a High Fidelity system IS to reproduce the sound of the source.
It's the goal that engineers have been working towards since Edison.
And SOTA refers to accomplishing that chore in as perfect a way as possible.
It's definable and measurable.

Motorcycles have many goals and SOTA's involved. Cruiser, Dirt, Rocket, On/Off road, etc, etc etc.
There isn't any one SOTA in motorcycling, it's whatever the rider wants/needs it to be.

Of course none of this has any real purpose outside of Matt trying to bust my balls over my choice of rides.
If your a real motorcyclist, it's not what you ride, it's the fact that you either ride or you don't.
2 Wheels (the inverted peace sign) is the salute we give each other as we pass on the road,
no matter the type or style of bike.

You totally get it, but then lose the thread. The goal of a high-fidelity system is to give pleasure to its owner. If I don't enjoy listening to it, the system is an abject failure. It may be a success as a device for accurately reproducing the input signal, but that's more of a too/measurement feedback device.

If you like the more accurate signal reproduced by digital/solid-state/cone speakers then that system is fulfilling its purpose FOR YOU. If someone else prefers the sound of vinyl/SET tubes/planar speakers then that system fulfills its purpose for them. Swap around system and listener and both are failures.

It's EXACTLY the same with motorcycles. I look at that abomination of a chopper and can't think of anything worse than riding it - even for a minute. You'd look at my KTM and you'd be horrified by the thought of spending a day on it. When we close our eyes and imagine "motorcycle" we both have wildly different Platonic ideals.

There are areas where this sort of dichotomy doesn't exist. Data processing. Surgery. Orbital dynamics. There are only right answers and wrong answers. But with products devised for leisure activities - many ways to skin a cat, and none are really wrong.

 

[-Matt-]

The goal of a high-fidelity system is to give pleasure to its owner. ... If you like the more accurate signal reproduced by digital/solid-state/cone speakers then that system is fulfilling its purpose FOR YOU. If someone else prefers the sound of vinyl/SET tubes/planar speakers then that system fulfills its purpose for them.

Agreed, but let's not go too far! It is still (IMHO) totally appropriate for a forum named Audio Science Review to place maximum emphasis on measured performance. (Whilst recognising that there can be other psychoacoustic factors in perceived enjoyment).

 

[Doctor Big]

And to get this thread back on topic (motorcycles), here's where SOTA quite literally means the difference between life and death.

 

[Doctor Big]

Agreed, but let's not go too far! It is still (IMHO) totally appropriate for a forum named Audio Science Review to place maximum emphasis on measured performance. (Whilst recognising that there can be other psychoacoustic factors in perceived enjoyment).

Concur. Increasing performance and accuracy in reproduction is an admirable goal. But to quote Robert Fripp - Discipline is never an end in itself, only a means to an end.

In the end, we're sitting there listening to music, and if you don't enjoy how it sounds, the method of reproduction (the system) is a failure.

 

[MattHooper]

View attachment 222837View attachment 222839

That one always cracks me up, Sal!

Now...if we could just get an explanation for why records sounds so much better than digital...

One day the science will catch up.