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Why do records sound so much better than digital?

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levimax

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The sound of vinyls distortion of the master, both from the masters preparation for the cutting lathe, and the weaknesses of the media in attempting to reproduce the sound on the disc. It amazes me you never hear the inner groove distortion on every LP ever pressed. Or the massacre of the correct bass level and balance between channels. Or, or, or, or. :)
The digital is the sound of the source.
This thread didn't get to be 103 pages without lots of dead horse beating :) ..... so what about the "moves" the mastering engineers made to improve (in their opinion) the master tapes which you would lose with a direct transfer of the master tape to digital? Sometimes the improvements a good mastering engineer can add are greater than the loss for compensation for disc cutting (which is hardly a "massacre" if done correctly). Very few commercially released recordings, digital or otherwise, are actual "flat transfers" of the masters so the whole argument is a kind of a strawman.
 

dlaloum

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This is so sensible and logical.

I am a music lover and have for decades noticed and said that SQ often varies more between the actual recordings than the equipment choices we make.

I have loads of LPs, since I started buying records in the 1960s, CDs and SACDs some of which are multi channel.

Quite a long time ago I abandoned multi channel because of limited recordings and the godawful mess of speakers and cables.

Most of my recordings are stereo or mono, that is what I listen to. I dislike headphones, both from a comfort and soundscape pov and only use them on the ‘plane or nowadays the ‘bus.

The vast majority of people I know mainly or only listen to music in the background but they are the people the recording industry has to satisfy, so in reality, superb high and low frequency performance will only be even reproduced by a fraction of a percent of people listening and having even 16-bits of dynamic range means everybody using portables and car systems will miss a lot of a recording so they will never happen.

The sad fact is that audiophilia’s biggest problem is and always will be the recordings and I, for one, would still far rather enjoy an imperfect recording of a performance I love than a wide frequency and dynamic range of something banal or I don’t like.

So my Hi-Fi is as good (probably much better) than it will ever need to be for my musical enjoyment.

To which I would add - far too many audiophiles seem to forget the midrange in the search for deep and high extension - a properly set up pair of Quad ESL57 electrostatics, can demonstrate over and over again that 99% of what we want from music is in the midrange - and you can get absolute magic if you get that midrange just right.... (and very very few speakers get close to the magic of the ESL57's in the midrange!)

I have a pair of ESL57's in storage... and currently run something with much more depth and highs, as well as a far far wider "sweet spot" - but the midrange sweetness of the 57's is missing....
 

dlaloum

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If you mean multichannel by "derailed", then have a look at CD-4 records that are multichannel:

Trouble is (was) - to properly reproduce CD4 you need a cartridge and stylus capable of tracking properly at around 40kHz

The best of the CD4 era could do it... many couldn't (and would wear away the high frequencies & therefore the back channels with alacrity!).

To do it properly you need a very low effective mass stylus - and today those are as rare as hens teeth.
 

dlaloum

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H-D in trouble? They're still the #1 selling Touring motorcycle in the world.
Obvious your not "into" motorcycles
No you don't buy a touring type bike to race.
You don't buy a racing type bike to tour.
Either would suck in at others specialty.
You don't buy a new Cadillac Celestiq to compete at your local road race course either.
But they are SOTA in their genre.


Your generalization of H-D, the motorcycle market, and myself do show your lack of understanding.
I don't play with crap in any of my ventures. ;)
Merry Christmas. ;)
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Then how come you only have "Horns"? - Shouldn't you also have a pair of stats? (gotta be consistent!)
 

dlaloum

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The sound of vinyls distortion of the master, both from the masters preparation for the cutting lathe, and the weaknesses of the media in attempting to reproduce the sound on the disc. It amazes me you never hear the inner groove distortion on every LP ever pressed. Or the massacre of the correct bass level and balance between channels. Or, or, or, or. :)
The digital is the sound of the source.
Linear Tracking = IGD "bye bye"
 

Audiofire

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FWIW, I have a pretty good vinyl system. It is the only way to access some recordings and masterings that I love. I digitize it right away though :)
Me too, a fine line stylus causes less wear than an elliptical one as well.

Trouble is (was) - to properly reproduce CD4 you need a cartridge and stylus capable of tracking properly at around 40kHz

The best of the CD4 era could do it... many couldn't (and would wear away the high frequencies & therefore the back channels with alacrity!).
Thank heavens for mass production of CDs in the nineties that still have the same sound quality...
 

Holmz

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You must be Holmz from Audiogon?
...

Yeah.



My vinyl rig by most standards is very good. Unlike most audiophile vinyl rigs though, mine is setup correctly and I know the performance.

Even with the brickwall analog filters of the mid-80s I don't think vinyl has ever sounded better. Audiophiles tell themselves that lie to help sleep at night, but I could take a mid 80's CD mastering rig and put it up against your best vinyl and it will do just fine.

^That^ is pretty parallel to my point. Putting a CD from the 80s against vinyl and “it will do just fine”, means that the vinyl must also sound just fine?
And the other point was that there was effectively NO digital prior to the 80s. So it would be like saying that tomorrows tech has always been better than <whatever>… it can only be better when actually they both exist. In theory something new can be better, but then it is put into practice before the dream become reality.i



Audiophiles have told themselves the same lies so many times that they can't even conceive of the truth any more. They make declarations about what something sounds like without any knowledge of what their baseline is. What's funny is they now regurgitate those same DACs from the 80's and now they are wonderful. Yes, low end consumer DACs were poor originally, but that is not a format or even a recording limitation. Those, if mastered well, have been beyond vinyl for pretty much as long as the format has existed.
...

The truth is that vinyl can sound pretty good.
What metric are you using SINAD? Or some other thing?

I am as big on metrics as the next fellow or girl, but I do not think that I thing I hear 100 dB of cross talk, and the vinyl sounds good.
The digital also sounds good.
I guess I am not an audiophile then, because I do not have power conditioners and exotic cables and interconnects.

But you said “ Yes, low end consumer DACs were poor originally” which was what we both agree on.



Invariably when vinyl lovers talk about the best records, they wax about pre-1970's stampings ..... that says an awful lot.

Almost everyone not using earbuds bitches about compression and compression wars.
I have some new vinyl that sounds pretty good.
 

IPunchCholla

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H-D in trouble? They're still the #1 selling Touring motorcycle in the world.
Obvious your not "into" motorcycles
No you don't buy a touring type bike to race.
You don't buy a racing type bike to tour.
Either would suck in at others specialty.
You don't buy a new Cadillac Celestiq to compete at your local road race course either.
But they are SOTA in their genre.


Your generalization of H-D, the motorcycle market, and myself do show your lack of understanding.
I don't play with crap in any of my ventures. ;)
Merry Christmas. ;)
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I understand the concept of horses for courses. Nothing in you reply indicates a Harley Cruiser is in anyway SOTA. It might be very good at its intended job (like vinyl) but what about it is SOTA?
 

Newman

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MCH is over 30 years old so hardly "new" and the trend is more toward mono either "smart speakers" or "sound bars" both of which can sound surprisingly good. As much as Mr. Dr. Toole has done great research and every audio enthusiast should be grateful, he is in the business of selling amps and speakers and MCH is the best way to sell more of both. MCH is one possible solution for "better sound" but not the only one. All this talk of "what format is superior" is kind of silly I think, if you are a "recorded music enthusiast" having the ability to play back multiple formats is going to give you access to the largest variety of recorded music. Not sure why that isn't something everyone can agree on :)
I never said that his writings were motivated by selling more speakers and amps, what I said was he was involved with a business that sells speakers and amps. Like Amir's disclaimers when ever he reviews Harmon products, which I really appreciate, being aware of potential biases is just part of healthy skepticism. It is not a judgement on the person or their motives.
As we can clearly see, that is not what you said. To say "he is in the business of selling amps and speakers" is to say that his daily work makes him money from sales or focuses on the sales: it is clear you are trying to disrespect his research and imply it is biased by a conflict of interest. Which is ignorant of the actual arrangement Dr. Toole had with Dr. Harman. You should look into it and stop casting snide aspersions.

I have also corrected your other attempt at disrespect. (And no, it was not an oversight: in a subsequent post you repeatedly referred to "Mr." Toole and "Mr." Olive, and I bet you know perfectly well what you are doing wrong and why. I sure do.)

You need to understand who you are 'sniping' and 'snipping away' at. Dr. Sidney Harman was a noted philanthropist and visionary in many areas not related to 'selling gear', and he put a lot of his money into things that were for pure motives and not in expectation of some sort of ROI. Dr. Floyd Toole was an audio researcher since 1965, and had already risen to pre-eminence in the field by the time in the 90's when Dr. Harman approached him with a proposal to establish a new unit and facility with a much greater research budget (for Toole's field) than the NRC of Canada, for the altruistic purpose of furthering audio research with real science and with no strings attached. Dr. Toole demanded and promptly received assurances that he would control the direction of research and it would all be public domain. This was a very exceptional relationship and I can understand you assuming otherwise, but no more, okay? We are talking about an audio luminary who would have a strong case to be the pre-eminent audio researcher of our generation, and pinnacle expert on the field of his research. Your clear implication that he would exaggerate the importance of MCH because "he is in the business of selling amps and speakers and MCH is the best way to sell more of both" is rejected, not to mention so, so petty.
 
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JP

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Linear Tracking = IGD "bye bye"
How’s that? Linear tracking makes the groove radius larger and the groove speed faster?
 

NTK

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I understand the concept of horses for courses. Nothing in you reply indicates a Harley Cruiser is in anyway SOTA. It might be very good at its intended job (like vinyl) but what about it is SOTA?
A comparison between audio gear and motor vehicles only goes so far.

What are the use cases for motor vehicles? Here are a few I can think of at the moment:
- Commute to/from work during rush hours
- Grocery shopping
- Get some lumber from the home improvement store for a landscaping project
- A trip down to the Florida Keys

Each of these use cases demand very different "performance attributes" -- some critical in one use case can be totally irrelevant for the others. And many people have multiple motor vehicles because of this.

The range of use cases (I can think of) for home audio gears is much narrower. Sound quality, seems to me should be a common requirement to most if not all use cases most here care about (i.e. probably not including frat house parties).

It is quite true that a Harley is not SOTA in terms of mechanical performance. The question is: What does one sacrifice by riding a Harley instead of, say, a BMW S 1000 RR for a joy ride? And what does one sacrifice by listening to vinyl instead of digital?
 

dlaloum

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How’s that? Linear tracking makes the groove radius larger and the groove speed faster?
Well it removes the distortion generated by geometry issues - typically at their worst in the inner grooves

If you have a good Linear contact needle... with a nice narrow edge - then the compression won't matter - it will trace it just fine. If you are running with a "fat" spherical or eliptical - then you can have issues.

Get a needle that was designed for tracking 40kHz+ (that was what Shibata and its ilk were designed for in the CD4 days!) - and the radius /speed becomes less of an issue - well within their trackability capabilities....as long as the geometry is not a problem.

High Compliance, low effective tip mass, line contact needle, on a linear tracker.... = What IGD?
 

Newman

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This is seriously confused, I'm afraid. Logically: why would "everyone" be "prevented" from pursuing something by the opinions of a "portion" of an already tiny and insignificant minority, i.e. audiophiles? Remember, audiophiles have zero influence on what is supplied to the mass market.

You are the confused one, I'm afraid. It was clear enough that I was talking about "everyone" who is debating whether vinyl sounds better or worse than digital audio. My post was entirely about people who are interested in the pinnacle of home audio sound quality. Your attempt to suddenly expand that to mean all 8 billion people on the planet.... :facepalm:

The key issue is actually this: there are probably fewer than a thousand properly installed and set-up domestic multichannel music systems in the entire world. You and e.g. @Sal1950 and maybe some others here have one, but there is no chance at all of the mass market following your lead, because of boxes and wires and ugliness and intrusion.

Therefore there is no money in multichannel right now. Because of mass market domestic resistance, the notion died in its crib. Loudspeaker-based multichannel will never happen. Those of us whose income depends on such things know this. Nothing to do with audiophiles' attitudes.

Instead, we're betting on infinite-channel immersive sound delivered by headphones. That's where the research is, and where the money will be. A current-day Toole would be working hard on it. Sean Olive has been, for years. Me too, and my peers. We're almost ready. Believe me, recording engineers are always thinking of our wallets, but we base our projections on reality, not anti-audiophile rants.
If any of the above anti-MCH rant was true -- which it isn't -- a key indicator would be the plummeting sales of AVRs. Instead, it is projected to grow 30% globally by 2028. Whoops.

Next.

PS no issue with headphone spatial audio taking off. The VR gamers will be the first to be delighted. So will I.
 

JP

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High Compliance, low effective tip mass, line contact needle, on a linear tracker.... = What IGD?

Compliance and ETM matters more for inner grooves?

Well it removes the distortion generated by geometry issues - typically at their worst in the inner grooves
That half a percent for half a CM is a real killer.
 

dlaloum

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Compliance and ETM matters more for inner grooves?


That half a percent for half a CM is a real killer.
Tracking ability matters - typically, high compliance (and ETM) have higher tracking ability - which means they handle inner track issues with greater ease...

I've been hooked on that approach/philosophy ever since I first heard a Shure V15VMR on a Revox Linatrack in the mid 80's... inner track sibilance be gone!
 

MattHooper

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A comparison between audio gear and motor vehicles only goes so far.

What are the use cases for motor vehicles? Here are a few I can think of at the moment:
- Commute to/from work during rush hours
- Grocery shopping
- Get some lumber from the home improvement store for a landscaping project
- A trip down to the Florida Keys

Each of these use cases demand very different "performance attributes" -- some critical in one use case can be totally irrelevant for the others. And many people have multiple motor vehicles because of this.

The range of use cases (I can think of) for home audio gears is much narrower. Sound quality, seems to me should be a common requirement to most if not all use cases most here care about (i.e. probably not including frat house parties).

It is quite true that a Harley is not SOTA in terms of mechanical performance. The question is: What does one sacrifice by riding a Harley instead of, say, a BMW S 1000 RR for a joy ride? And what does one sacrifice by listening to vinyl instead of digital?

I think you've just made the case (or missed it?) for the comparison.

Harley Critic: Why are you riding a Harley? Don't you know there are much better and safer ways to get around? We have cars now with four wheels, and in which you are enclosed, making you much safer in an accident and protected from the elements. You can transport more people! You can transport more things in a car! And you can only ride your silly bike in certain seasons (if you are somewhere seasonal). There are bikes that get much better gas mileage. And also you don't have to put up with that ridiculous LOUD NOISE - there are much quieter offerings! Why in the world did you make such a silly choice given all the alternatives?

Etc.

Someone saying that to a Harley rider would just be missing the point, wouldn't they? You aren't riding a Harley as a SOTA motorcycle, much less a SOTA method of transportation! The person who keeps pointing out how much "better" and "more advanced" other bikes or forms of transportion are, is not getting the value of a Harley to the owner. That person is only evaluating the choice from their own set of goals, in which a Harley doesn't make sense.

It's the same for picking on people who like vinyl "because it's not SOTA! There are higher accuracy, more convenient methods of playing music now, don't you know that?"

Just like there are various methods of transportation that appeal to different people, so there are different methods of music delivery that appeal to different people. Not all of it is SOTA nor does it have to be.
 

majingotan

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I was just listening again to one of the vinyl versions and was just being blown away. It was almost hallucinogenic in it's clarity, expansiveness, and presence! Relative to the digital version, which sounds like a nice clean recording, the vinyl version has a bit more texture and presence - the sense that the drum machines, all the synth sparkles and jabs just seem to pop in and out right in to the room as solid objects, or just hang palpably in the air. Less like a see-through hologram, slightly more like a physical object moving air in the room. This is in the big picture subtle differences, but for me they are very significant to my enjoyment of the sound. Which is why I'm gonna go track down some more vinyl versions of some of my favorite electronica....

Vinyl produces very pleasing distortions indeed :) Then again, though I've never heard a good vinyl setup (I've only demoed lifeless sounding crosleys) I do prefer my digital audio chain "dirty" (except for jitter which I need to ensure that it's extremely accurate to make my dirty distortion laden chain system sound pleasingly enjoyable)
 

Sal1950

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I’m not into motor cycles, but hasn’t HD been in trouble because they are largely seen as a retro, old tech brand?
Yep, H-D is in serious trouble LOL

Harley-Davidson's global revenue increased by almost 32 percent in 2021 compared to the previous year. H-D generated around 5.3 billion U.S. dollars in revenue for the full 2021 financial year, some 800 million U.S. dollars of which was generated from financial services. That same year, revenue generated from motorcycle sales increased by more than 39 percent to some 4.54 billion U.S. dollars. The U.S. was the most important regional market for Harley-Davidson in 2021 with almost 126,276 unit sales.

My motorcycle fanatic friends (one of whom is an editor for a motorcycle magazine)...disagrees.
What part of my statement do they disagree with.
^^^ Looks like I was right on point.

It is quite true that a Harley is not SOTA in terms of mechanical performance. The question is: What does one sacrifice by riding a Harley instead of, say, a BMW S 1000 RR for a joy ride?
Is that 1/2" thick seat, Ricky Racer humping the fuel tank riding position, and boot heels up your butt what you'd consider a SOTA Touring bike?
100 miles a day and it's time to call the chiropractor. LOL
Good "Mechanical Performance" is defined by how well a vehicle can accomplish it's intended task.

2021-BMW-S1000RR3.jpg
 

Chrispy

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Yep, H-D is in serious trouble LOL

Harley-Davidson's global revenue increased by almost 32 percent in 2021 compared to the previous year. H-D generated around 5.3 billion U.S. dollars in revenue for the full 2021 financial year, some 800 million U.S. dollars of which was generated from financial services. That same year, revenue generated from motorcycle sales increased by more than 39 percent to some 4.54 billion U.S. dollars. The U.S. was the most important regional market for Harley-Davidson in 2021 with almost 126,276 unit sales.


What part of my statement do they disagree with.
^^^ Looks like I was right on point.


Is that 1/2" thick seat, Ricky Racer humping the fuel tank riding position, and boot heels up your butt what you'd consider a SOTA Touring bike?
100 miles a day and it's time to call the chiropractor. LOL
Good "Mechanical Performance" is defined by how well a vehicle can accomplish it's intended task.

2021-BMW-S1000RR3.jpg
Then again HD motorcyles are among the poorest in the world....mostly just annoying vs performance. Without their special protection a while back they'd probably just be gone....
 
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