Why do people recommend using a streamer between the PC and the DAC?

[Aerith Gainsborough]

At the input to the amp, the audio signal is perfect when referenced to the DAC ground - but from the point of view of the amp - the DAC ground has noise on it, so the amp sees that noise on also on the signal.

Ah, I see.
Thank you for explaining.

(Differential amplifier)

Yep, that was what I was thinking about but you are correct: the noise rejection only works if both signal wires are affected equally (what would be the case if e.g.: a stage light near the cable were to interfere).

 

[antcollinet]

(what would be the case if e.g.: a stage light near the cable were to interfere).

This is why balanced signals are also typically carried on twisted pair. The twist ensures the impedence between each wire and whatever the noise source is (In this case electrostatic or inductive coupling to the stage light) is equal.

Having said that - even if there were no twist, unless the light were right on top of the cable, inverse square law of the EMI field would mean there was very little difference. Most of the noise would still be balanced out.

In reality, I think the biggest error in noise rejection comes from lack of balance in the output and input impedances. I did a fag packet calculation a few months ago, and assumed (I think) 1% tolerance on all the resistors, meant that the noise rejection, instead of being infinite (if all impedances were perfectly balanced) might "only" be 40dB or so. (still plenty for reducing noise below audible limits I'd think)

 

[antcollinet]

So I do wonder how widespread this issue really is.

Widespread enough that I regularly advise people here...

And the very next day, here is another....

PC noise with MiniDsp Flex RCA and valve amp

I'm having an issue with my MiniDsp Flex RCA and noise from the connected PC when using my Graaf integrated 25 valve amp. I also have a couple of Fosi V3 Mono's which I alternate with the Graaf and they are OK, although it seems (from what I've read) valve amps can be more susceptible to PC...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[JaccoW]

I set up my streamer, PC and DAC using option B. No interference or hiss whatsoever.
I didn't want to have to turn on either device when listening to the other so I just went with the DAC as the central point:

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

And the very next day, here is another....

PC noise with MiniDsp Flex RCA and valve amp

I'm having an issue with my MiniDsp Flex RCA and noise from the connected PC when using my Graaf integrated 25 valve amp. I also have a couple of Fosi V3 Mono's which I alternate with the Graaf and they are OK, although it seems (from what I've read) valve amps can be more susceptible to PC...

audiosciencereview.com

Hehe, I find it interesting that you state that several devices do not have a ground connection.
I was under the impression that ALL devices plugged into a wall outlet have a ground connection in order to work.

The 3rd contact (PE) is just a backup to bring all touchable parts to ground level.

 

[antcollinet]

Hehe, I find it interesting that you state that several devices do not have a ground connection.
I was under the impression that ALL devices plugged into a wall outlet have a ground connection in order to work.

The 3rd contact (PE) is just a backup to bring all touchable parts to ground level.

You have Live, Neutral, and Earth. (PE). Neutral is not ground and is never connected to the ground/0V of an audio device.

PE is the one that is involved in ground loops, not neutral. (Because PE is the one that is used to ground the chassis of a device and thereby, typically the 0V/Ground reference for the audio). Class II devices (double inuslated) don't have PE connection. This includes pretty much anything powered by a "wall wart"

 

[bennetng]

Doesn't an AVR work the same as e.g.: my ADI-2 DAC?
Digital Input -> DSP -> DAC -> AMP -> Analog out

Depends. AVRs often support more formats than typical DACs and studio interfaces, like AC3, DTS and so on. Some of these formats are lossy and depends on how and where the decoding is being done (on the PC or on the AVR, fixed or floating point decoders) and depends on the audio content, there could be differences in the decoded data.

Objectively best/most compliant MP3 decoder?

I recently found myself going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out which is the most compliant and bit perfect MP3 decoder available today. Now, I understand the inherent limitations of lossy formats but the stark reality is we largely live in a post-CD era where Amazon and iTunes rule...

www.audiosciencereview.com

As for electrical noise, EMI etc, I also have an internal X-Fi PCIE soundcard and I am not aware of any audible noise in my use case. Here are some measurements with and without a GPU card installed.

Can't get Asus Xonar SE detected on new hardware (e.g. Z590 / other Intel 5xx)? Try this.

My shiny new Asus TUF Gaming Z590-Plus WIFI (now that's a mouthful) mamaboard would not detect a Xonar SE soundcard by the very same manufacturer (oops). On top of that, the Intel I225-V onboard LAN would disappear when the card was inserted. :facepalm: At the same time, the card was proven to...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amir also measured some other internal soundcards:

Review and Measurements of Sound BlasterX AE-5

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Creative Las Sound BlasterX AE-5 internal PCI sound card/interface. It is on kind loan from a member. The AE-5 costs US $149 including Prime shipping on Amazon. Given the 6 channel output, line/microphone in, and headphone out, that is quite a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

EVGA NU Audio Pro Review (Internal Sound Card)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the EVGA NU Audio Pro 7.1 Surround DAC, headphone amplifier and ADC. It was kindly purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs US $300 on Amazon including free shipping. I like the slick coloring and logo: But I hate, hate, hate...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Whether PC noise is a problem (audible) or not depends on how different pieces of audio hardware are connected, the signal chain in a measurement set up may not be the same as the signal chain during actual usage, if you cannot hear noise in your use case then everything is good. Solutions like toslink are for those who are being affected and is not always necessary.

 

[Chrispy]

I've seen many people saying that using a streamer, even a cheap one, between the PC and the DAC improves the sound quality coming out of the DAC. Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand it.

I understand when people recommend a DDC before the DAC, because of the USB isolation and the reclocking. But what a streamer does if you don't use its internal DAC?

Cheers!

LOL

 

[guigui]

LOL

Please elaborate.

 

[antcollinet]

Please elaborate.

I think he means "Many people are saying" nonsense.

 

[guigui]

I think he means "Many people are saying" nonsense.

It'd be better to say that than act like a troll.

 

[antcollinet]

It'd be better to say that than act like a troll.

Well it is laughable, some of the nonsense that people come out with. We also hear it here over and over (and some more overs) again. Sometimes the only reasonable response is to laugh. This is not trolling.

 

[guigui]

Well it is laughable, some of the nonsense that people come out with. We also hear it here over and over (and some more overs) again. Sometimes the only reasonable response is to laugh. This is not trolling.

The nonsense may be laughable, but it's not clear if he's laughing about that or about my question.

That's why I asked him to elaborate.

 

[antcollinet]

The nonsense may be laughable, but it's not clear if he's laughing about that or about my question.

That's why I asked him to elaborate.

I agree he could have made that clearer. I hope it was the nonsense.

 

[Balle Clorin]

PC has nothing to do in a Hifi system , I use PC enough at work..

 

[Yachats]

The nonsense may be laughable, but it's not clear if he's laughing about that or about my question.

That's why I asked him to elaborate.

I thought your question legitimate. I'm struggling with the same question myself. Currently I house my library of music on hard drive that is connected via USB to my laptop. The laptop is exclusive to music playback and downloads. It has no other function. I index the hard drive using a Bluesound streamer and the Bluesound OS. The Bluesound OS app resides on my laptop. I select music from my library using the Bluesound OS and stream it to the Bluesound streamer. The streamer is connected by coaxial to the pre-amp. I've not had any noise issues with this arrangement.

Why I found this thread of interest is that I'm planning a major upgrade - going with an integrated amp (Luxman 509z) and a DAC like the Dennafrips Terminator 15. I was planning to bypass the streamer by simply connecting the laptop via USB to the Dennafrips. But it appears the experts on this thread say this likely will introduce noise into the system.

I have a friend that is pushing me to stream via a Cambridge Audio Edge NQ. That device is three-in-one - DAC, Streamer, and Pre-Amp. The Cambridge Audio Edge NQ Streamer uses StreamMagic, an app that can be run from a tablet. The app has the ability to control the pre-amp and regulate volume or skip tunes for example.

It's all confusing to me. I likely will try to evaluate this StreamMagic at a store to see if it will work with my system. Supposedly the StreamMagic app can work directly with the data stored on the hard drive. The Bluesound forces me to index the hard drive metadata so that it can find the music. The StreamMagic supposedly does not need indexing.

It would be so much simpler to simply connect the USB out from the laptop to the DAC and bypass the streaming.

 

[sq225917]

Imac m1, audivarna software usb into dac. No noise, no nothing that needs a crutch to fix, can control the PC from any handheld device, phone tablet etc. It just works.

Can people please stop calling xlr cables balanced. It's differential signalling, balanced refers to impedance matching on the receiving circuit. Two quite separate things. A circuit can have an xlr input, using both phases, doesn't mean it's balanced.

 

[antcollinet]

But it appears the experts on this thread say this likely will introduce noise into the system.

Just make sure you are using balanced interconnect for all analogue connections, and you’ll have no noise issues.

Or use a toslink connection from PC to DAC, and that will eliminate all noise also.

Also be aware with that selection of DAC and Amp, you are paying at least 5x what you need to for equivalent sound quality.

 

[Yachats]

Just make sure you are using balanced interconnect for all analogue connections, and you’ll have no noise issues.

Or use a toslink connection from PC to DAC, and that will eliminate all noise also.

Also be aware with that selection of DAC and Amp, you are paying at least 5x what you need to for equivalent sound quality.

If there's a recommendation you'd like to make, I'd be very interested in hearing what it is. Thanks for the input!

 

[antcollinet]

If there's a recommendation you'd like to make, I'd be very interested in hearing what it is. Thanks for the input!

I’d be looking at an RME DAC, and Purify based amp. Both state of the art for sound quality. Though there are not many integrated amps built on Purify modules. However the RME operate fine as a pre amp.

Though you won’t get the beautiful build and VU meters of the luxman