Why do people associate High End audio with snake-oil?

[svart-hvitt]

It is not just subjectivity but also objectivity. Often to bring out a point, I may have to change the settings for a measurement. Recent testing of headphone amps shows this where there are myriads of configurations in a headphone amp from gain to input and output voltages. Picking one out of that infinity as a "standard" is impossible and may create an unfair condition for one of the two products under test.

I see your point, absolutely.

On the other hand, we have people discussing artificial intelligence and how AI will revolutionize everything, making cars autonomous etc. I think the AI talk is mostly BS, because things are often a bit more complicated. But I think there’s a middle road somewhere, and I think audio measurements could be more standardized, i.e. subject to some scoring algorithm. In other words: I don’t think algos will drive cars in normal traffic shortly, but I think it may be possible to make an algo to score audio products after measurements. This algo may not be perfect, but I think objectivity is so important I can live with an algo that is not perfect. In absence of an algo (i.e. an objective formula made in advance and not during or after measurements), there is risk that one changes methods during the research process, which may be influenced by biases.

I guess I’m a «standardization» man, probably more so than most.

 

[SIY]

The word you're looking for is "procrustean."

 

[Sal1950]

https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/audioprism-cd-stoplight

I've read a few times here about John Atkinson advocating the green CD marker.. Is this for real? I can't find a link anywhere...

I haven't seen it either but I wouldn't doubt it. You got to remember that Stereophile and everyone else in the high end media was promoting this thing as the hottest product since sliced bread. Way too late now to back down on those proclamations. In the years since you never hear any discussion of it any more, no one talking about giving their CD's a fresh treatment before evaluating a $100,000 amp, etc. They have just hoped that everyone would forget all about it.. I held Teresa Goodwin to task for her rave review of the CD Stoplight for Positive Feedback
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue43/green_pen.htm
over on CA. She once again stood by her guns, though saying she hadn't used it in years blah blah blah. Seems as if all the old posts at CA since Chris's forum software has lost all the old info so I can't link what she said here.
Funny how things work. Go back 20 or 30 years in one of the surviving medias reviews, pick a product from the Recommended Components list, say amplifiers, then work your way forward thru the years, reading the reviews of the pieces that have replaced them over the years. Then before you gag on the repeated "lifted veils, improved PRAT, etc etc etc", add them together and at the end of the day you would expect my 1990 Adcom GFA545 II's to sound like my 1925 Atwater Kent if compared against Michael Fremer's $170,000 Dartzeel monoblocks. Truth, I wouldn't shake in my boots to do a DBT into a speaker with a reasonable load and at within it's power ratings. Under very critical listening it might be identifiable but I promise his wife won't call from the kitchen, "honey what did you change?".

 

[JJB70]

As I remember it just about all of the magazines and reviewers jumped on the green pen bandwagon like lemmings running off the cliff.

 

[svart-hvitt]

As I remember it just about all of the magazines and reviewers jumped on the green pen bandwagon like lemmings running off the cliff.

Which reminds us of the two underpinnings of science:

1) Establish a theory
2) Test the theory (empirically)

Following these two principles means more work. And less embarassment.

For hifi magazines, these two principles may not work due to their business model.

 

[JJB70]

I think there is another aspect in addition to the obvious commercial imperative for magazines to keep their advertising accounts healthy and to keep the magical bubble inflated, that being group think.

I wonder how many of them really do buy into all the nonsense and how many realise it is utter nonsense but know which side their bread is buttered. And of course the world is made of shades of grey, I suspect many will be sceptical about certain ideas whilst believing others (aren't we all like that?). JA has been mentioned a few times, whatever I think of him he is not an idiot and I just find it hard to believe he doesn't realise the madness of some of this stuff.

 

[watchnerd]

I'll admit to using a turntable clamp on my Michell Gyro SE (heck, it comes with one); it helps flatten records.

But apparently using a log is much better:

 

[Soniclife]

I'll admit to using a turntable clamp on my Michell Gyro SE (heck, it comes with one); it helps flatten records.

But apparently using a log is much better:

"It's big it's heavy it's wood..."

 

[Soniclife]

Funny how things work. Go back 20 or 30 years in one of the surviving medias reviews, pick a product from the Recommended Components list, say amplifiers, then work your way forward thru the years, reading the reviews of the pieces that have replaced them over the years. Then before you gag on the repeated "lifted veils, improved PRAT, etc etc etc", add them together and at the end of the day you would expect my 1990 Adcom GFA545 II's to sound like my 1925 Atwater Kent if compared against Michael Fremer's $170,000 Dartzeel monoblocks. Truth, I wouldn't shake in my boots to do a DBT into a speaker with a reasonable load and at within it's power ratings. Under very critical listening it might be identifiable but I promise his wife won't call from the kitchen, "honey what did you change?".

All true, but you forgot the other bit where every time they do test an old bit of kit they declare it very close to their current fav, without ever questioning how years of giant leaps forward have gone almost nowhere. It's almost like everything they test sounds exactly alike and only expectation bias that separates them.

 

[JJB70]

I'm starting a business providing audiophile concrete home foundations which tune the resonant frequency of houses and prevents electron leakage, it adds slam, rhythm and pace to your system, it's like a veil has been lifted. If you're not willing to demolish your home in order to rebuild it on audiophile concrete foundations (£8,500 per cubic centimetre) then you're just not serious about sound. I guarantee that all work is done using audiophile grade backhoe loaders with the buckets specially earthed to prevent grounding loops and all the electrics wired with oxygen free Teflon coated copper, yes friends, if you try digging out foundations with a non-audiophile digger it can have ruinous consequences for sound performance and introduce distortion and noise. I do consultations, just £500/minute plus VAT. Recommended in HiFi+ magazine.

 

[cjfrbw]

Yes. Watching peons toiling for crumbs of my Ill Gotten Gains Warbucks Bazillions, laboring on my audio dream Pied-à-terre and installing every sybaritic, delusional audio jewelry device/furniture available on the planet, are certainly my dream. It shall be anointed by the High Priests of Audiophilia with appropriate sacrificial renderings at the ribbon cutting ceremony.

When all of the other oligarchs are fuming and green with envy over my unobtanium largesse, I know I have achieved my goal, even if I mostly just listen on an ipod with cheap Apple earbuds!

 

[Don Hills]

... I guess I’m a «standardization» man, probably more so than most. ...

Without standards, manufacturers will present whatever measurements show their products in the best light.
With standards, manufacturers will optimise their products to give the best measurements to the standards. Good idea? (cough) automobile emissions standards. (cough)

 

[Sal1950]

JA has been mentioned a few times, whatever I think of him he is not an idiot and I just find it hard to believe he doesn't realise the madness of some of this stuff.

Of course he does, but I refer you back to your first sentence, he knows where his bread is buttered.
His problem isn't with his intelligence, his problem is a lack of integrity.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I'd love to hear the candid opinion of some of the engineers and technical people at equipment manufacturers about USB cables costing hundreds of dollars, cable resonance tuners, earthing boxes costing $$$$$s, Green highlighter pens, power conditioning products etc. I suspect that they find it all profoundly embarrassing. You don't have to read very far between lines in many cases. What is sad is that some manufacturers who really can design good equipment and have a lot of technical expertise (such as Meridian, PS, Naim) jump on the bandwagon for stuff like hideously expensive power conditioning.

I know a senior engineer at one of the high end electronics manufacturers. He uses a USB printer cable and properly sized copper speaker cable. He doesn't volunteer his opinion since many of his dealers sell the stuff and many of his customers are convinced it helps, but if asked, he gives his honest opinion.

 

[Frank Dernie]

if compared against Michael Fremer's $170,000 Dartzeel monoblocks.

Dartzeels have an unusually high output impedance which means into a real load they may effect the frequency response just enough (+/- 0.25 dB on Stereophile's simulated load) to be detected on blind comparison.
It is one of the amps which lead me to the suspicion that if you make an amp expensive and sound a bit different many will believe the difference must be better simply because it is more expensive.

 

[TBone]

I'll admit to using a turntable clamp on my Michell Gyro SE (heck, it comes with one); it helps flatten records.

But apparently using a log is much better:

Holly-smokes, just when I thought I'd seen (&read) every bad example of a clamp being used ...

Since any decent clamp can sink an LP to platter ... if that is your desire (essentially "sinking" establishes a direct conduit for all the noise generated within the 'table itself, and its entire environment) ... I really have no idea why such a large, and especially unbalanced (adding much potential noise/damage to the bearing) is required?

Timber; the lumberjack in me only sees disaster ...

 

[TBone]

I held Teresa Goodwin to task for her rave review of the CD Stoplight for Positive Feedback

Teresa's long been tilted, well prior to PF. I found it quite telling and a perfect fit when she joined Positive-Feedbunk.

Funny how things work. Go back 20 or 30 years in one of the surviving medias reviews, pick a product from the Recommended Components list, say amplifiers, then work your way forward thru the years, reading the reviews of the pieces that have replaced them over the years.

The Recommended Components list was fine bathroom reading, such a great idea ... take many different writers, all with very different systems, all with very different subjective expectations, all with very different experiences, give them all very different components to review ... then assign it a definitive Class X rating.

Borderline stupidity, but it sold very well ...

 

[SIY]

Holly-smokes, just when I thought I'd seen (&read) every bad example of a clamp being used ...

Since any decent clamp can sink an LP to platter ... if that is your desire (essentially "sinking" establishes a direct conduit for all the noise generated within the 'table itself, and its entire environment) ... I really have no idea why such a large, and especially unbalanced (adding much potential noise/damage to the bearing) is required?

Timber; the lumberjack in me only sees disaster ...

It's a minor tweak compared to this.

 

[TBone]

take my cake ... adding the anvil was a nice touch.

 

[dallasjustice]

Dartzeels have an unusually high output impedance which means into a real load they may effect the frequency response just enough (+/- 0.25 dB on Stereophile's simulated load) to be detected on blind comparison.
It is one of the amps which lead me to the suspicion that if you make an amp expensive and sound a bit different many will believe the difference must be better simply because it is more expensive.

This is true. But you also can’t ignore the influence looks has on some buyers. I personally think Dartzeel gear is gorgeous. I used to own the integrated amp. I’ve seen the monoblocks up close several times. It’s super nice stuff. That sort of thing really matters to some folks. I’m no longer persuaded by the expensive to produce audio jewelry. But some people are very much in that camp. Those folks are rarely persuaded with even the most basic measurements.