Why do passive speakers still exist?

[Duke]

I don't know if anyone already said this, but it is very easy to get into the business of manufacturing passive speakers.

This certainly applies to me. I became a speaker manufacturer after my brick-and-mortar store burned to the ground and the loss was not covered by insurance due to small-town politics. So I sold what little I had left and bought test equipment.

Crossover and port design is well documented and both are simple to make.

Passive crossover design is easy. Good passive crossover design is not.

Going active, especially with DSP adds at least two levels of complexity, and likely requires larger production runs, more engineering expertise and more investment.

I've done a couple of active designs for other manufacturers, but have no plans to ever manufacture an active loudspeaker myself.

The reason is, I feel an obligation to be able to service what I manufacture. I would be at the mercy of my suppliers if THEIR electronics failed, which means that MY CUSTOMERS would be at the mercy of a third party. One of my best friends is a competitor in the prosound world, that happened to him, and it was an expensive and reputation-damaging nightmare.

 

[LTig]

I But for the big main monitors, preference among the experienced leaned towards passive monitors, or towards active monitors with external amplifiers. .

AFAIK almost all big active studio monitors either use external amplification or offer this as option. Reason behind this is that this kind of monitor usually is mounted in wall where airflow for cooling is missing.

 

[ctrl]

The best of both worlds would be a speaker with separate inputs for each driver and a passive crossover that could be easily toggled with a switch. You could use a single amp to drive it like a regular passive speaker or separately amplify each driver.

Honestly, I would prefer that speakers came with the inputs to independently drive each driver and dropped the crossover entirely. It would have the advantages of active designs while still letting you choose the electronics. Active crossovers are better these days, and there's no sense spending money on a complex passive crossover that you're not going to use.

Nice if it were that simple, but loudspeaker design doesn't work that way
Linearize the drivers actively and adjust the level, then set the filter at the desired crossover frequency is not enough.
This would work for very few speakers.

Manufacturers would have to provide the active filter design as a download, which they will certainly never do - unless it is ensured that users cannot decipher the filter design.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Claiming that a studio monitor can't be fixed in 20 Years if it breaks can be said pretty much about any electronic device.

 

[andyc56]

Just curious about owners of 7.1 systems with active monitors. How do you turn your system on and off? I assume at turn-on that you turn your pre-pro on first. Then apparently you walk around to each of 7 active speakers and turn them on via the switch on the back? I wouldn't want to do that. I'd want a system with 12V triggers that turn the amps on and off automatically when the pre-pro is turned on and off, eliminating turn-on and turn-off thumps in the process. How many active monitors have 12V trigger inputs (and outputs for daisy-chaining)? None that I know of. But if there are, I'd like to know about them.

Even better, what if you have ceiling speakers? Do you bring in a ladder for the occasion? I get the advantages of active monitors and I like the idea of them. But how many active monitor manufacturers have made even a rudimentary attempt to deal with these mundane and obvious issues?

 

[Sancus]

Just curious about owners of 7.1 systems with active monitors. How do you turn your system on and off?

My whole system is active. The Genelecs and KH80s automatically turn on when they sense a signal. It's a feature that I feel basically all actives should have, but many don't. Some Focals have it as well, iirc.

I should note, it's not really all that hard to use smart power strips or 12V triggered power strips to do the same thing if need be.

 

[Purité Audio]

Not every contemporary active speaker have the electronics built in, the new GGNTKT for example, traditionally actives always had separate electronics.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

Claiming that a studio monitor can't be fixed in 20 Years if it breaks can be said pretty much about any electronic device.

Not so.
It probably will be a correct statement in 20 years when the surface mount DSP run electronics can not be replaced because what we are doing NOW is building in obsolesence, but of the HiFi kit I still have (I am a hoarder and pretty well never sell anything) all of it could be repaired if it went wrong except the most recent stuff which, you guessed it, have surface mount pcb and digital chips which would need a board change to repair.
I have 14 amps here, only 2 would not be repairable without needing board change.
My 2 pairs of active speakers are 20 and 5 years old. They both still work but probably are not repairable if they fail, the more recent one because of the design, the old one because the drivers are custom made and not available any more, though an equivalent may be possible.
In a way it is fine for cheap fashion label items because people change them due to change in fashion or marketing twist well before they stop working, if for one of the most expensive things you are going to buy, and keep for decades, it is most certainly not IMHO.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Just curious about owners of 7.1 systems with active monitors. How do you turn your system on and off? I assume at turn-on that you turn your pre-pro on first. Then apparently you walk around to each of 7 active speakers and turn them on via the switch on the back? I wouldn't want to do that. I'd want a system with 12V triggers that turn the amps on and off automatically when the pre-pro is turned on and off, eliminating turn-on and turn-off thumps in the process. How many active monitors have 12V trigger inputs (and outputs for daisy-chaining)? None that I know of. But if there are, I'd like to know about them.

Even better, what if you have ceiling speakers? Do you bring in a ladder for the occasion? I get the advantages of active monitors and I like the idea of them. But how many active monitor manufacturers have made even a rudimentary attempt to deal with these mundane and obvious issues?

Personally I think home theatre is a different market entirely (to the sort of thing I thought we are discussing) so I can see why anybody with one would stick to passive speakers.

 

[andyc56]

Personally I think home theatre is a different market entirely (to the sort of thing I thought we are discussing) so I can see why anybody with one would stick to passive speakers.

Okay, but then the question of "Why do passive speakers still exist?" becomes, "Why do home theater systems still exist?". Much of the rational approach to audio has its roots in the home theater world (e.g. satellites and multiple subs rather than full-range speakers as being preferred) .

I'm a two-channel guy myself, and would never want to put up with reaching behind speakers to turn them on and off.

 

[Purité Audio]

If there was a passive speaker that could match the performance of the active designs I enjoy, I would stock them, SBIR types offer real advantages for the majority of listeners in largely untreated domestic rooms, that’s it.
Keith

 

[Frank Dernie]

Okay, but then the question of "Why do passive speakers still exist?" becomes, "Why do home theater systems still exist?". Much of the rational approach to audio has its roots in the home theater world (e.g. satellites and multiple subs rather than full-range speakers as being preferred) .

I'm a two-channel guy myself, and would never want to put up with reaching behind speakers to turn them on and off.

I am old, when I started listening to music on quality music systems a lot of enthusiasts had not moved to stereo yet. For most of my life stereo has been the way to listen to music at good quality levels at home.
I have little interest in films but have bought a HT processor and tried a 5.1 system. I know a few people for whom the superior spatial reproduction of multi-channel music recordings is a huge bonus and they have invested the extra treble the money to achieve it. For me, with all good quality but not at the level of my main speakers, the extra 3 speakers and sub definitely add impact for films, but that is a twice per month benefit and certainly not worth the investment in more even better quality speakers.
That is just me, I seek timbral accuracy in the mainly acoustic music I enjoy most.
OTOH if I want to use the HT I do have to go behind centre, surround and sub to switch them on!

 

[Chromatischism]

OTOH if I want to use the HT I do have to go behind centre, surround and sub to switch them on!

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DQELHBS/
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B3DH762/

You're welcome

 

[Wombat]

I like my passive loudspeakers. I am a passive listener. Having built speakers I am completely happy with, I no longer listen for faults. No need to 'upgrade'. Just enjoy the music.

 

[Frank Dernie]

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DQELHBS/
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01B3DH762/

You're welcome

I have had these for my Devialet Phantoms for almost 5 years.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00UQOPM8U/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I could get more but don't use the HT system often enough to make it worth it so far.

 

[mhardy6647]

So, now I am even more intrigued as to how to pronounce Genelec! And here I've always thought it was Gen-ə-lec (primary emphasis on the first syllable, secondary empahsis on the schwa).

Genius Electronics* -- at least where I live, genius is pronounced with a long e sound...
so... it's Geen-elec, is it? or is it Gene-lec (two syllables)? And which syllable gets the emphasis?

Man, this globalization stuff is hard!

____________
* Hmm... Genius Electronics -- maybe that's a candidate for the pretentious audio components thread?

 

[Helicopter]

It is like 'Genetic.'

Source: one of the videos from their official channel.

 

[StefaanE]

On Longevity and Technology
We've been buying Miele washing machines and tumble dryers because of their longevity and repairability, and indeed, until now all our laundry equipments have given us about 20 years of service, with some minor repairs such as replacing belts and brushes. When our 17-year old washing machine made an awful noise a couple of weeks ago, with the drum being clearly off-centre, we called the Miele service and they sent over a technician (who could, as they said, quite probably repair it or advise us on, and take the order for, a replacement if it turned out to be unrepairable -- it all sounded great and very professional). It meant 5 days without a washing machine, which is uncomfortable with two young-adult daughters still at home, but manageable, so we waited. The technician took a single look at the machine, declared that repairing it would cost more than €1000, and that it would take 2 weeks. He said that he had no idea about a replacement and hence, he couldn't order it for us, and that we should visit a dealer (in these COVID times) to see if they had a suitable machine. That was €75 down the drain.

It turns out that the fashion in washing machines has changed, and what used to be popular 20 years ago (integrating the machines under the laundry or kitchen cupboards) is now so "passé" that there are hardly any machines left with removable tops so they can be integrated. The only Miele washing machine with a removable top costs more than €1600 (OK, it's got WiFi) and is only available on special order (cue at least two weeks of launderette duty, but as we live in the sticks, the closest launderette is a 30 minute drive. Sweet.) Fortunately, the web site of the electronics and electric goods store (interestingly called "HiFi International") in our local shopping centre informs me that they have a Bosch machine in stock, with a removable cover, delivered and installed for only €699. So we now have a Bosch machine. Even if it doesn't last 17 years, I'll have no regrets.

But here's the rub -- our 20+ years old Miele tumble dryer has started to make interesting noises, so we might have to replace it too. The only "evacuation" type dryer I can find is from Miele but, interestingly, it doesn't seem to have a removable top. The companion "heat pump condensation" dryer to our new Bosch also doesn't have a removable top and hence doesn't fit in the space next to its sibling. So now I have to start thinking about redoing the laundry room, which would mean throwing out a set of perfectly functional cupboards.

I hope those "interesting noises" go on for a very, very long time.

 

[mhardy6647]

It is like 'Genetic.'

Source: one of the videos from their official channel.

well, there you go, then

 

[andreasmaaan]

Regarding DSP, it's been mentioned that adding delay to align acoustic centers only works for one spot. With dispersion in mind, it's not typically a good idea to have wildly different acoustic centers. Passive crossovers can be used very effectively to combine drivers that aren't too far separated in distance, although variations from theoretical slopes will be made. There's nothing magical about text-book slopes anyway, so deviating does not degrade the sound.

I appreciate your post, and basically agree with all your arguments, but I have a couple of points of difference.

Regarding acoustic centres, sure, active delays don't allow you to put the tweeter on one side of the room and the midrange on the other. But they do allow you to place them significantly further apart than passive crossovers. With a passive design, 1/16 to (at most) 1/8 of a wavelength might be just manageable with asymmetrical filters. With an active design, you should get up to 1/2 wavelength with similar costs in terms of off-axis performance. This really can make a huge difference IME.

Phase can be manipulated with DSP, but a speaker doesn't have to be active to do it. Additionally, typical speaker phase distortions above 1000 Hz are completely inconsequential. The same is true below 200 Hz where the room dominates. There's probably some small frequency range between 200 Hz and 1000 Hz where phase distortion could even be perceived by most people (listening to speakers in a room), and then there wouldn't be a strong preference for distortionless playback. Phase correction is just not very important to human perception of sound... it can be more important for marketing with pretty graphs, though.

I 100% agree with this.

DSP can also make the frequency response flatter in magnitude. However, there's a point where this also becomes inconsequential. Is a speaker that's +/- 1 dB from the target response perceived as better than a speaker that's +/- 2 dB? How about 3 dB? There are plenty of passive designs that are within +/- 3 dB (or less) from their target.

It's a question of two things: (1) the expense of high component-count passive crossovers, and (2) the linearity required of drivers in the first place. If equalisation is cheap, linearity needn't be as central a focus in driver design/selection.

Also, enclosure volume considerations can be sidestepped to some extent with active designs (no passive standmount the size of a Kii Three or D&D 8C with the radiating surface area of two 7" or 8" woofers is going to play flat down to 30Hz, for example).

In the end, it's about possibilities. With passive designs, certain additional limitations apply, whereas the inverse is simply not true.

This doesn't mean passives shouldn't exist or can't be excellent. It just means they impose more limitations on the designer than active loudspeakers do, which make some (not all) design goals more difficult to achieve, and others impossible.