Why do passive speakers still exist?

[Jaxjax]

w/ the micro-ination of amps and digital processing ?
I imagine designers are busy atm creating integrated wireless/dac/amp/crossovers/eq/loudness curve loudspeakers for the next generation of KEF LS Meta or Neumann KH120 MKII-types. Can't wait to hear them : = )

Nah.... alot of people will never trust dsp active & I'm active. With passive its basically just drivers to worry about replacing but not so much with active..
I wanted to re....program my dsp actives & getting the manufacture to be on board with that is not happening. A new plate/dsp will cost & they do malfunction. Maybe for the lifestyle/ inexpensive stuff this will be norm as it pretty much is but when the $ gets serious people start thinking of being pigeon holed. I with ya though...I like dsp. But Kef,, Philharmonic, Ascend etc..all produce passive stuff that run circles around my dsp rig.

 

[tmtomh]

Here is how I see the best-case scenario for paving the way for the dominance of actives in the consumer space, which as @DVDdoug notes above has and will continued to have a major surround/multichannel component to it.

To contemplate actives becoming dominant, you have to assume that the following will happen:

• Longstanding myths around amp-speaker pairing will fade away; and
• Latency-free wireless communication among sets of active speakers will become commonplace, available in lower-line offerings, and rock-solid dependable; and
• Recently constructed homes, condos, and apartments will have AC outlets available near all the desired speaker locations; and
• The distribution channels for (relatively) affordable, good-quality actives will expand considerably.

Even in that best-case scenario, there will still be at least two major barriers to widespread adoption of actives:

1. The value and simplicity/elegance advantage of having each channel's amp inside the speaker instead of inside the multichannel processor box you have to have anyway, is minimal to zero; and
2. Unless the best-performing, highest-value speakers are designed with modular, easily swappable amp modules - and there is high consumer confidence that replacement modules will be available 5-10 years later - passives will continue to be perceived as a much safer investment.

I say all this as someone who listens in stereo, has actives, loves them, and if they ever were to need replacement or upgrading would again look at actives. But I don't see my use case and attitude becoming the dominant one.

 

[rdenney]

I like dinosaurs. Nothing wrong with dinosaurs.

Rick "dinosaur" Denney

edit: For future readers, this post made sense in the thread "Are passive speakers dinosaurs?", but maybe not so much in "why do passive speakers still exist?, with which it was merged.

 

[kyuu]

Yes, but what kind of dinosaur are passives? They're not all great.

 

[dfuller]

Yes. They're from an era when amps were bulky and expensive, and integrated circuits either didn't exist or were too expensive. Amps are no longer bulky and expensive, and IC op-amps are cheap and plentiful.

 

[pjug]

Is that really a different question that this one where there are 92 pages of discussion?

Why do passive speakers still exist?

In a world where amazing active speakers / monitors exist, why do passive speakers not only continue to exist but are almost 90% of all speakers sold ( i guess). What are the benefits of a passive speaker vs an active one?

audiosciencereview.com

 

[jcarys]

Active speakers have been around for a generation or two and haven't taken over the market yet. Since I have just put a 30 year old passive speaker in for service (most likely a crossover replacement) you have to consider whether you can repair a speaker and whether it's worth it. Generally for a passive model the answer is yes. For an active one, just like any other old electronics, generally the answer is no it's not possible, or not worth the expense.

 

[Timcognito]

Yeah buy a new amp with every pair. There are arguments for both. Some us own many any can mix and match. If one has one system and little space actives make a lot of sense. It is funny that that most cars are SUVs now.

 

[Oddball]

I have spend some time (not too much though) understanding why active speakers are a way to go, but...Good ones are still very expensive. And I do have concern about longevity of the active ones. So much going on in such small space, does not really scream - buy me, will serve you for 20+ years at no additional cost.

Some of my passive speakers are 15 years old and even after some extreme abuse (only few but extreme), they are still running supreme. All my amps are 15 years old and still punching as they are supposed to. Electric cars are also great, but then once you need to replace the battery pack you realise the cost of ownership.

But the real problem for me would be to to drag power cables to front wides and surrounds, as well as 4 (soon hopefully 6) Atmos channels. That would require some serious work.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have both.
Actives are potentially technically superior but don't last as long.
I am old so sticking with what I have. If I were young I would go active but based on my longevity experience (software, not hardware) they need to be about ⅓ the price since that is very approximately how much shorter their life.

 

[ryanosaur]

Is that really a different question that this one where there are 92 pages of discussion?

Why do passive speakers still exist?

In a world where amazing active speakers / monitors exist, why do passive speakers not only continue to exist but are almost 90% of all speakers sold ( i guess). What are the benefits of a passive speaker vs an active one?

audiosciencereview.com

Was wondering about that… odds on a thread merge, anybody?

 

[Jim Taylor]

Propeller-driven aircraft are still around.
Wood-burning stoves are still around.
Fiberglass fishing rods are still around.
ICE cars are still around.
Log homes are still around.
Natural wool clothing is still around.
Hand tools for working wood are still around.
Non-hybridized (heritage) seeds are still around.

Everything has its place, and every person has their choice. I don't see that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Natural wool clothing is still around.

I only wear natural fibres, so thank goodness!

 

[krabapple]

Until we invent a way to adapt far-field wireless power transmission to safe and economical consumer use, no, passives will not be dinosaurs.

Especially for those who aren't stuck to old 2-channel paradigm, and have a surround system.

 

[mhardy6647]

Propeller-driven aircraft are still around.
Wood-burning stoves are still around.
Fiberglass fishing rods are still around.
ICE cars are still around.
Log homes are still around.
Natural wool clothing is still around.
Hand tools for working wood are still around.
Non-hybridized (heritage) seeds are still around.

Everything has its place, and every person has their choice. I don't see that there is anything wrong with that.

Dude - you forgot film cameras (and film for them, too). They don't have to be just shelf queens.



Heck, there's even current production instant film again. That is a little Jurassic, even from my perspective.

 

[Oddball]

Talking about the price, let's see how low can great passives can get to. That would be the the price point where people might seriously consider active alternatives as not everyone is willing to write a blanc checque. 8+K for kick-ass Revel LCR combo and let's call it 2K for the amps. Based on prior experience that is 20+ year deal, so $500 a year or less. With active offering you can't really tell what is the cost per year, which is kind of bad?

Still trying to pull the trigger on some towers. 10,000 budget. Please help me decide.

Looking at the Borresens measurements I'm pretty sure that's a speaker that would grate on me over time. But we should be wary of taking our own subjective experiences and preferences and thinking they are universal. They won't be. Agreed regarding universality of subjective preference. I own...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[masterhw]

Here is how I see the best-case scenario for paving the way for the dominance of actives in the consumer space, which as @DVDdoug notes above has and will continued to have a major surround/multichannel component to it.

To contemplate actives becoming dominant, you have to assume that the following will happen:

• Longstanding myths around amp-speaker pairing will fade away; and
• Latency-free wireless communication among sets of active speakers will become commonplace, available in lower-line offerings, and rock-solid dependable; and
• Recently constructed homes, condos, and apartments will have AC outlets available near all the desired speaker locations; and
• The distribution channels for (relatively) affordable, good-quality actives will expand considerably.

Even in that best-case scenario, there will still be at least two major barriers to widespread adoption of actives:

1. The value and simplicity/elegance advantage of having each channel's amp inside the speaker instead of inside the multichannel processor box you have to have anyway, is minimal to zero; and
2. Unless the best-performing, highest-value speakers are designed with modular, easily swappable amp modules - and there is high consumer confidence that replacement modules will be available 5-10 years later - passives will continue to be perceived as a much safer investment.

I say all this as someone who listens in stereo, has actives, loves them, and if they ever were to need replacement or upgrading would again look at actives. But I don't see my use case and attitude becoming the dominant one.

Alternatively, Power over Ethernet can deliver signal and power over one cable, and is better suited to integrate around a room than AC mains. AES67 (licensing free) can do 96kHz/24-bit with negligible latency, and recent PoE specs can deliver 70W or more per channel. This configuration actually comes with some non-obvious benefits, like shifting AC-DC conversion off the active speaker and to the PoE switch, as well as providing a central place to provide processing/EQ.

A reimagined Audio-Video Processor as:

1. Accepting HDMI audio* (more on this later)
2. Processing with an on-board DSP/room EQ suite
3. Providing many channels of high-power PoE outputs to active speakers like the Genelec 4430A

With each of these PoE active speakers:

1. Only performing DC-DC conversion, reducing cost and waste heat. The PoE input spec of 50-57V is right around the range of many amplifier boards
2. Having all the benefits of actives, letting them be smaller and with more imperfect drivers while delivering flatter output over a range of SPLs
3. Make use of PoE+++ (70-80W), capable of well beyond 100dB sustained output
4. Adhere to open protocols like AES67 making them (ideally) usable even if the OEM goes belly up

Should make for a pretty interesting setup. Challenges:

1. *Dolby and DTS seem averse to fully digital signal paths. I don't understand all the DRM protections like the HDMI Protected Audio Path, but I would hope its possible to implement such a configuration in a way that is acceptable to licensers. If decoding directly is too challenged, you can pivot to rely on source decoding with 7.1 LPCM. Would be nice to keep spatial channels if possible though. HDMI spec allows for 32 LPCM channels, so a glimmer of hope?
2. Looking at Genelec's Smart IP series, which closely resemble the kind of speaker I've described, it would be nice if they were higher power. The latest PoE can do over double the 30W they've designed around. The subwoofer in particular seems the most constrained by this, where a 35 Hz rolloff would not be accepted by the HT crowd.

 

[Newman]

...I assume most people don't want to figure-out how to plug-in 5 or more surround speakers.

"I can do it 2 times, but to do it 3 more times is just so baffling."

Just getting the signal wires to the rear speakers can sometimes be tricky.

"Are you telling me to get a sufficiently long wire, plug one end into the hifi and the other end into the speaker? And route the wire behind the furniture out of the way? Tricky...."

 

[JiiPee]

"I can do it 2 times, but to do it 3 more times is just so baffling."


"Are you telling me to get a sufficiently long wire, plug one end into the hifi and the other end into the speaker? And route the wire behind the furniture out of the way? Tricky...."

"Never mind the signal wires. Just think about the herculean task of plug-in the power cables!"

 

[MattHooper]

"I can do it 2 times, but to do it 3 more times is just so baffling."


"Are you telling me to get a sufficiently long wire, plug one end into the hifi and the other end into the speaker? And route the wire behind the furniture out of the way? Tricky...."

The typical stereo set up is relatively easy. It usually takes the equipment in one part of the room. Now if you’re going to add two or four side and backs surround speakers, that’s a whole lot more real estate to find in the room, both aesthetically and ergonomically. Especially if you’re setting up a whole bunch more stand mounted speakers around the room. Yes that is actually a practical (and cabling) hassle. But if you want to avoid the type of problems I’m trying to place a bunch more stand mounted speakers in the room, then you’re going to go with solutions like on wall or in wall… and then we’re usually talking about rooting cables through walls, which is a whole new ball game. Now add on if you’re trying to do Dolby Atmos and to do it “ right” you’re putting speakers on the ceiling as well.

The idea that a surround system - a true quality surround system - prevent little more hassle in the stereo system is just naïve.

There is a reason why most people aren’t doing this.

I myself love surround sound, and love my surround system, but I would not look forward to the hassle of trying to add anymore speakers to my system.