Why do passive speakers still exist?

[Newman]

Actives have lots of advantages, but not enough to wipe passives out of the market. There are disadvantages to actives which I will not go into here in the interest of forum peace and tranquility.

What peace and tranquility?

Seriously, do go into the disadvantages. It's 100% on topic, and you are hinting that "we can't handle the truth". Which is bull. Show some respect.

cheers

 

[Ron Texas]

What peace and tranquility?

Seriously, do go into the disadvantages. It's 100% on topic, and you are hinting that "we can't handle the truth". Which is bull. Show some respect.

cheers

If you ask that way, the answer is no. Don't ask again and don't put words in my mouth. You are exactly what I was worried about.

 

[Penelinfi]

What peace and tranquility?

Seriously, do go into the disadvantages. It's 100% on topic, and you are hinting that "we can't handle the truth". Which is bull. Show some respect.

cheers

Latency, self noise.
Minor issue - power leads to speaker position, volume control for some
Looks - many actives seem to be studio monitors (hence have such design considerations; built more rugged, with functional materials, covers, paint etc), or are "lifestyle" products, more geared towards casual listeners.
Test of time - some, will stop working eventually and it may be harder to fix. Redundancy - look at those "wireless" soundbar subwoofers that are paperweights when no longer with the soundbar, all because they couldn't add a simple 3.5mm or rca socket and a power switch.
Choice - you get to pair a $100 amp with $10k speakers. Or less optimally, a $10k amp with $100 speakers ;p
"It comes with stuff I don't need". I mean that goes for many amplifiers too
Fantasy - it's less fun for many "audiophiles" to actually reach the holy grail - the box that does it all.

Not always deal breakers, just things to consider like you would with going passive too.

A question - how many active speaker inbuilt amps have measurements?

 

[Ron Texas]

@Penelinfi that's as good a list as any. Once I listed the disadvantages of tubes and a few members went nuts. On the subject of amp measurements I have never seen them published. At ASR a teardown was done and the chip identified. The SINAD was in the low 70's or worse I recall.

 

[dlaloum]

@Penelinfi that's as good a list as any. Once I listed the disadvantages of tubes and a few members went nuts. On the subject of amp measurements I have never seen them published. At ASR a teardown was done and the chip identified. The SINAD was in the low 70's or worse I recall.

Yes, well, once it moves into the domain of speakers, where no standard exists for active speaker measurements - all it has to provide in terms of specs i some approximation (as relevant) to speaker specs alone...

SINAD becomes relevant only if it becomes audible, and the threshold of audibility for distortion is around 40.... the threshold for noise is in the 70's.

Passive speakers typically have distortion (especially in the bass) that rises above 1% - ie -40db

So as a base spec, a SINAD of 40 would be normal for most speakers (active or passive !!)

So yep the manufacturer can easily get away with an onboard amp having a SINAD of 70... - and that may well be completely reasonable!... or Not!

Overall - we currently do not have a set of standard specs for active speakers that really make sense, nor a set of standard tests...

 

[Purité Audio]

Latency, self noise.
Minor issue - power leads to speaker position, volume control for some
Looks - many actives seem to be studio monitors (hence have such design considerations; built more rugged, with functional materials, covers, paint etc), or are "lifestyle" products, more geared towards casual listeners.
Test of time - some, will stop working eventually and it may be harder to fix. Redundancy - look at those "wireless" soundbar subwoofers that are paperweights when no longer with the soundbar, all because they couldn't add a simple 3.5mm or rca socket and a power switch.
Choice - you get to pair a $100 amp with $10k speakers. Or less optimally, a $10k amp with $100 speakers ;p
"It comes with stuff I don't need". I mean that goes for many amplifiers too
Fantasy - it's less fun for many "audiophiles" to actually reach the holy grail - the box that does it all.

Not always deal breakers, just things to consider like you would with going passive too.

A question - how many active speaker inbuilt amps have measurements?

Contemporary designs have ‘low’ latency modes, visible power cables compared to vastly improved sound quality…
aesthetics that is down to the listener but many of the new designs straddle the pro and domestic markets ( if you prime goal is transparency)
Passive speakers can stop working over time, drivers become unavailable, manufacturers go under.
Contemporary actives do rather spoil the ‘hobby’ aspect of reproduction, all those amps and cables to try sold with the promise of an improvement in sound quality.
Keith

 

[badspeakerdesigner]

From a builder and "designer" perspective, I've built a lot of speakers and moved away from passive speakers/xovers. I have some friends who are really all about trying to design their own passive xovers and it mostly seems to come from a place of mysticism. To them they feel there's a sort of badge of honor to designing a good passive xover. I personally don't really care and just want good driver integration that isn't hard to get. I ditched all plans to design passive xovers for my speakers after trying active. The sound is much better and the filtering is way easier to do, you're not locked into buying various resistors, caps, and inductors to test the xover over time, just change some values and get results quick.

Only concern I can see is longevity, but that's mostly for speakers with built in amplifiers+filtering. Not a problem if using separate amps. I really hope to see more options for DSP amplifiers. A little stack of cheap class d amps with configurable dsp built in would be amazing.

 

[dfuller]

Latency, self noise.
Minor issue - power leads to speaker position, volume control for some
Looks - many actives seem to be studio monitors (hence have such design considerations; built more rugged, with functional materials, covers, paint etc), or are "lifestyle" products, more geared towards casual listeners.
Test of time - some, will stop working eventually and it may be harder to fix. Redundancy - look at those "wireless" soundbar subwoofers that are paperweights when no longer with the soundbar, all because they couldn't add a simple 3.5mm or rca socket and a power switch.
Choice - you get to pair a $100 amp with $10k speakers. Or less optimally, a $10k amp with $100 speakers ;p
"It comes with stuff I don't need". I mean that goes for many amplifiers too
Fantasy - it's less fun for many "audiophiles" to actually reach the holy grail - the box that does it all.

Not always deal breakers, just things to consider like you would with going passive too.

A question - how many active speaker inbuilt amps have measurements?

So, I'll go through this...

Latency is not necessarily an issue; you only get lots of delay (over about 5ms) with DSP speakers that use FIR linear phase crossover filters. Analog active and IIR DSP crossovers don't have the delay problem.

Noise can certainly be an issue because of the direct amp to driver connection. However I've only noticed this to be an issue mostly on generally entry level products (except for Barefoots, and nobody should be buying them anyway because they're terrible).

The looks thing I'll give you, but I find most home audio speakers to look much worse than a form-follows-function active monitor.

Test of time, don't buy lifestyle speakers. Digital streaming is cool and all but there is a reason pro stuff is generally only equipped with inputs that have been around forever (XLR or TRS analog, AES3/EBU digital) or are widely used AES standards (AES67 AoIP). As far as repair goes, one can generally repair plate amps without a huge amount of effort. You may be SOL in either active or passive if a driver fails and it's no longer in production. Good manufacturers will stock replacement parts for a long time after ceasing manufacturing.


As far as choice, that's part of the nice thing about actives - you don't need to worry about buying an amp. It's already got one.


As far as separate measurements, if they're not showing gross distortion above that of the transducers themselves it's probably fine.

 

[Killingbeans]

Latency, self noise.
Minor issue - power leads to speaker position, volume control for some
Looks - many actives seem to be studio monitors (hence have such design considerations; built more rugged, with functional materials, covers, paint etc), or are "lifestyle" products, more geared towards casual listeners.
Test of time - some, will stop working eventually and it may be harder to fix. Redundancy - look at those "wireless" soundbar subwoofers that are paperweights when no longer with the soundbar, all because they couldn't add a simple 3.5mm or rca socket and a power switch.
Choice - you get to pair a $100 amp with $10k speakers. Or less optimally, a $10k amp with $100 speakers ;p
"It comes with stuff I don't need". I mean that goes for many amplifiers too
Fantasy - it's less fun for many "audiophiles" to actually reach the holy grail - the box that does it all.

Not always deal breakers, just things to consider like you would with going passive too.

I don't have a dream speaker that I'd like to buy, but I have one that I'd like to design and produce/sell.

Ultra low residual noise, DANTE over Powerline for single cable hook-up, visual design by an actual super skillful industrial designer who can do a "timeless classics" rather than a silly gimmick sculpture, extreme focus on thermal management and serviceability. Choice and fantasy would have to make way for uncompromised performance.

A question - how many active speaker inbuilt amps have measurements?

I think SBAF did measurements on the amp in one of the small JBLs. The numbers were a "horror show" compared to SOTA. No big surprise there.

Just shows that in terms of sound quality alone, amplifiers don't mean squat, as long as you have low enough residual noise (no hiss), reasonably low distortion and a good amount of headroom in both amp and PSU power.

Speaker drivers, enclosures/construction/acoustics and room effects dwarf the rest completely.

 

[Ron Texas]

@Purité Audio vastly improved sound quality?

 

[dfuller]

I think SBAF did measurements on the amp in one of the small JBLs. The numbers were a "horror show" compared to SOTA. No big surprise there.

Curious, do you have a link? I'm always curious to see what the EQ looks like...

 

[droid2000]

Give us one single example in consumer electronics. The support standards for $1k smartphones are very clear and defined, and NEVER go beyond 4-5 years.

I work in enterprise IT technology. Indeed we are contractually obligated to provide long term support. How long entirely depends on the customer base's needs and the product. When people pay $500k for a slot-card in a 16 card system they may just want to use it for a bit. Government agencies have different standards, and they pay for it.

Consumer electronics... naw. Tell me of a single device that has been supported by the vendor with updates for over 5 years. I have a 10 year old computer I keep using, but it is entirely self supported and I had to load Ubuntu Linux into it. Open source. Firmware? Not a single update since 2018 or so.

Just FYI - my 2014 Mac Mini OS has had continuous upgrades it's entire life. The last update was about a month ago.

 

[Purité Audio]

@Purité Audio vastly improved sound quality?

You are right, I was referring to measurement led contemporary actives, not ‘traditional’ actives which offer relatively very little improvement in SQ.
Keith

 

[Ron Texas]

You are right, I was referring to measurement led contemporary actives, not ‘traditional’ actives which offer relatively very little improvement in SQ.
Keith

There are measurement led passives. I don't want to sound like my daddy is tougher than your daddy. It's more like there are different ways to get to the same result. Probably there is a good argument that actives provide better sound for the money.

 

[Killingbeans]

Curious, do you have a link? I'm always curious to see what the EQ looks like...

No measurement of the frequency response, just the "ugly" noise and distortion.

Audio Science Review Review

A while back, a few members suggested that we do a review of Audio Science Review. I didn't think it was a good idea back then because I wanted to...

www.superbestaudiofriends.org

 

[dfuller]

No measurement of the frequency response, just the "ugly" noise and distortion.

Audio Science Review Review

A while back, a few members suggested that we do a review of Audio Science Review. I didn't think it was a good idea back then because I wanted to...

www.superbestaudiofriends.org

Yeah that doesn't surprise me at all. That whole thing is grossly high distortion.

 

[Purité Audio]

There are measurement led passives. I don't want to sound like my daddy is tougher than your daddy. It's more like there are different ways to get to the same result. Probably there is a good argument that actives provide better sound for the money.

Agreed just that no passive design combines the features that are currently available in contemporary active designs.
Keith

 

[MattHooper]

You see some of these AV receivers tested here have 16 channels? Imagine having 16 powered speakers in your home theater system, you would need 16 more power cables and 16 more outlets than if they were all passive.

I use active studio monitors and probably would never go the passive route, but I think a passive system still has some practical advantages. Sometimes it's not about performance but "path dependency".

^^^ This post from the first page also seems like a good point about the limited practicality of active speakers.

I myself really dislike any added power cords in my listening room. Much more hassle (and harder to hide) than speaker cables. (One of the reasons I got rid
of my subs, the annoying requirements of finding a good spot for them but also near enough a power outlet, etc).

Is it possible that generally speaking a powered design will eek out some performance over a passive version of the same speaker? Sure. But in terms of the actual speaker landscape of existing choices, I try to keep the actual sonic gains in some perspective. Whether it's demoing active vs passive speakers at the shops, or hearing active speakers at shows vs all the other designs in other rooms, I've had no come-to-jesus experience hearing an active and tended to be more impressed by some of the passive speakers. I mean, for me, gimme an MBL 101 over a Kii 3 any day of the week. I know others would prefer otherwise. But...choice is why it's good passive speakers still exist.

 

[gnarly]

^^^ This post from the first page also seems like a good point about the limited practicality of active speakers.

I myself really dislike any added power cords in my listening room. Much more hassle (and harder to hide) than speaker cables. (One of the reasons I got rid
of my subs, the annoying requirements of finding a good spot for them but also near enough a power outlet, etc).

Why equate 'active' as necessarily having amps in the speakers (and needing AC to the speakers.)

I've come to strongly prefer having DSP and amps physically separate from 'active' multi-way speakers.
Which like with passives, only takes a speaker cable to go to the speakers.

 

[IPunchCholla]

^^^ This post from the first page also seems like a good point about the limited practicality of active speakers.

I myself really dislike any added power cords in my listening room. Much more hassle (and harder to hide) than speaker cables. (One of the reasons I got rid
of my subs, the annoying requirements of finding a good spot for them but also near enough a power outlet, etc).

Is it possible that generally speaking a powered design will eke out some performance over a passive version of the same speaker? Sure. But in terms of the actual speaker landscape of existing choices, I try to keep the actual sonic gains in some perspective. Whether it's demoing active vs passive speakers at the shops, or hearing active speakers at shows vs all the other designs in other rooms, I've had no come-to-jesus experience hearing an active and tended to be more impressed by some of the passive speakers. I mean, for me, gimme an MBL 101 over a Kii 3 any day of the week. I know others would prefer otherwise. But...choice is why it's good passive speakers still exist.

Is there a reason the MBLs couldn’t be run active?