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Why do passive speakers still exist?

Katji

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I'm trying to decide between active or passive speakers. One big question for me Is the ability of a class d active speaker playing hi res audio like a SACD. An entry level speaker like the adam t8v will "ruin" the audio signal with the digital to analog conversion? Is there any benefits on using a good dac if the signal is going to be converted again with a poor adc?
On the Personus eris e8 xt, a class AB speaker are any adc involved? Does anyone know some other good measuring entry level active speaker that would be good for this application?

Deciding between active and passive, there are probably more criteria than just high fidelity...? (Like convenience, for example.)

There is active and there is powered. "Active" generally used when it should be called "powered." [imo/afaik,] powered speaker is a speaker with analog amplifier built-in to the speaker cabinet, uses only analog input, and active speaker includes DSP/active crossover and probably digital inputs.

If the source is digital then, even if the speaker provides for analog input (TRS / RCA / XLR) and so has ADC, the ADC will not be involved.
 

Katji

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IME DACs have been transparent to multiple DAC > ADC > DAC>ADC conversions up to over 8x for several years so any concern about this is psychological not real I would say.

I would imagine there will be no problem here and doing what suits you for convenience and functionality would be the best thing to do, not worry about that. OTOH as a matter of engineering principle I would try to keep things as simple as possible.

Psychology is always involved anyway, and mine includes the keep it simple concept - iow, apply the same principle that people apply to analog systems - minimise boxes, cables, gadgets, and crossover components. So [...well...] it is not so different from what I began with a while ago - turntable, amplifier, speakers. Or turntable[+cartridge, perhaps.] :)

[Really. :( This software, in its wisdom, :rolleyes: sees fit to remove the double spaces I use between sentences. ...However, I am supposed to accept the apostrophe plurals psychosis and so on.]
 

Ron Texas

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Casting?

Maybe not so terribly difficult.

Make one and copy it.

Ray, that's sand casting which is very labor intensive. Genelec enclosures are made in a mold with tight tolerances to minimize labor needed to remove excess metal surface irregularities and arrive at a finished part. It's probably die cast.

The casting equipment and the metal dies represent large capital costs and this tends to limit the process to high-volume production. Manufacture of parts using die casting is relatively simple, involving only four main steps, which keeps the incremental cost per item low. It is especially suited for a large quantity of small- to medium-sized castings, which is why die casting produces more castings than any other casting process. Die castings are characterized by a very good surface finish (by casting standards) and dimensional consistency. [Wikipedia]
 

StefaanE

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I don't know anybody who has bought one for music listening.
Actually, I did. To be precise, back in 2011 I wanted a setup that would allow me to combine music (for me) and movies (for the kids) in my living room, and naively I believed that by then, amplification would no longer be an issue. So I went ahead and ordered a Yamaha receiver and 2 Infinity Primus 360 speakers from Amazon, and was amazed at the affordable prices (about €400 for the receiver and €130 each for the speakers). I got the Yamaha because it had a phono input, and I have lots of records, many with sentimental value not matched by their audio quality.

And to be honest, it sounded a lot better than my Technics "Class AA" amplifier and Infinity Reference 1i bookshelf speakers (which I recycled for surround duty). Even though I only had 4 speakers, surround sound in movies worked pretty well (there's no space in my living room for more speakers, let alone wires). In 2019 I upgraded the television to 4K, and the Yamaha to a Marantz SR5013 (it's cute, has 4K HDMI support and it fits in my equipment cupboard). The Marantz sounded exactly like the Yamaha -- maybe because I wasn't expecting anything else. Here I was, perfectly happy with the sound from my setup, believing that YPAO and Audyssey only served to adjust the levels of the speakers, and that 4 channels was all a punter ever needed :).

Then I started to have ideas about better speakers (because COVID killed my 65th birthday trip plans), which, given the price good speakers command, prompted me to search the Internets. It's been quite an educational roller-coaster ride since then.
 

StefaanE

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Hi,
Already posted something similar on another thread but so far without a reply.
I'm trying to decide between active or passive speakers. One big question for me Is the ability of a class d active speaker playing hi res audio like a SACD. An entry level speaker like the adam t8v will "ruin" the audio signal with the digital to analog conversion? Is there any benefits on using a good dac if the signal is going to be converted again with a poor adc?
On the Personus eris e8 xt, a class AB speaker are any adc involved? Does anyone know some other good measuring entry level active speaker that would be good for this application?
I have Nubert active speakers with digital inputs hence my digital sources don't need to be converted. But I must say that I do not hear any effect of such conversions, for example when I play a concert from the Berlin Philharmonic Digital Convert Hall from my Apple TV through my Marantz SR5013 to my speakers, which implies a D2A conversion in the Marantz followed immediately by a A2D conversion in the speakers.

That being said, there is a difference at high levels of analogue signal amplification in the speaker. When I set the Marantz level at -40dB and the speaker level higher than -6dB, there's audible noise coming from the speakers when there's no music signal. Reducing the amplification in the speakers and boosting it in the Marantz is the better approach (e.g. speakers at -25dB and Marantz at -15dB). To hear any noise when using the speakers digital inputs, you have to put the level at 0dB and your ear against the tweeter.

So if my experience is anything to go by, when your speakers have analogue inputs only, you should make sure that your signal is strong enough. If not, the speakers will be amplifying the source's noise floor, I guess. When going through the Marantz, I don't notice the multiple ADCs and DACs in the signal path, but maybe my ears aren't very good ;).
 

srrxr71

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Surely AVRs are sold to people who think it will be better for watching films not listening to music???
I don't know anybody who has bought one for music listening.
I do know a small number of music lovers who have super expensive 5.1 systems for SACD and surround music listening but the vast majority of people I know looking for good quality sound in the home are not going to go near a home theatre type setup because it is hard enough to afford 2 good speakers so going for something like 7.2.4 will either cost more than their car or be of very low audio quality for music listening and, anyway, need a completely mock set of decoding to simulate signals to go to such a huge number of speakers when the original signal has 2 channels.

I would imagine the LS50 wireless is more expensive since it includes the amplifiers as well as the wireless and DSP electronics, none of which are included in the LS50. It doesn't seem much more to me.

Also multi channel analogue outputs add a LOT to the cost of an AVR, have you seen the price of the output connectors? I can't see them ever being fitted to inexpensive ones, and, at present, digital outputs are forbidden by licensing on multi channel devices.

The thing is very few people buy anything for “music listening” I mean beyond some Sonos pair. Less than 2% at best.

believe me I understand that argument for an audiophile. I used to be one. I can’t even afford and setup a proper “audiophile” 2 channel system leave alone 5.1 or 7.2 etc. but that is an audiophile perspective. I used to make that argument 10 years ago. Things are very different now. An iPhone dac would probably outperform some voodoo “audiophile” dac of 10 years ago. Those people are 2% or the market and dying out anyway.

I have a friend who is a musician. He of course has an active setup for his home studio. Go to the living room and what does he have? A receiver wired to a bunch of wall/ceiling mounted passives. The typical consumer level thing to do. He knows good sound but he’s okay with that in his home listening setup.

the question was not limited to the audiophile market. If it were then the answer is totally different and probably is another marketing thing. Personally ever since I got my first powered (not even active with an electronic crossover) I never looked back. I went with only professional monitors from that point onwards. Genelec, Focal even Edifier actives for a bedroom system.

Why do audiophiles still go passive? They haven’t discovered actives maybe? All the audiophile marketing pushes big amps and passive speakers? I don’t know. It is my opinion that an audiophile would likely do better going with active pro monitors. Then again they tend to not win favor with spouses for their generally ugly appearance. Of course there is Focal making very nice looking active studio monitors. I’m sure some “hardcore audiophiles” will look down on actives as they associated with the pro market. Probably those people just like to have the bragging rights of how much the crystal in their dac is so very special and expensive or how they have a separate $$$ unit to generate a timing signal for their dac which separate from their $$$$ transport and all that thinking. If they looked at it from purely price/performance perspective then going active is the obvious choice.

It really depends on if the question is about “audiophiles” or about the market in general. The general market wants all the latest dolby acronyms bundled into their receiver and frankly some of those are pretty good even for 2 channel. Maybe not “audiophile” level but good enough. I know several musician friends who find using a receiver even for 2 channel content sufficient. One of whom even runs his turntable through it.

the average person looks at a “sound system” as a receiver and a bunch of speakers.

anyway the entire paradigm in audio is about to change (except for audiophiles but nobody really cares what they think) and consumer audio will go active for cost/convenience reasons. Times are changing and i’m really thankful new technology is bringing very high quality sound to the masses.

The LS50 was a great deal at $2000 well worth the extra cost over the passives. But now it old and just got a price increase. I’m not interested in analog multichannel out. However you raise a good point that digital out is restricted due to licensing and that’s a bummer. However wireless will make the whole industry go active. It just makes sense. It’s inevitable.
 
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srrxr71

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Any ' valid ' data to suggest passive networks are inferior to active ?

Valid as in blind tested spin comparisons..
I suppose we would have to add “at a given price point”. The LS50w vs LS50 + $800 amp (or whatever the difference is these days) would be pretty easy to do and I bet it’s been done.
 

Thomas savage

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I suppose we would have to add “at a given price point”. The LS50w vs LS50 + $800 amp (or whatever the difference is these days) would be pretty easy to do and I bet it’s been done.
Umm, bet it has ... #Science

As far as I know CAD designed passive networks and active solutions don't have and audible differences.


Why would they ?

Evidence anyone or just lay intuition..
 

srrxr71

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Umm, bet it has ... #Science

As far as I know CAD designed passive networks and active solutions don't have and audible differences.


Why would they ?

Evidence anyone or just lay intuition..

I don’t think it’s that. Ignore the potential for DSP crossover networks which may not be feasible in the analog domain which is another topic.


It is the ability to place impedance matched amps after the crossover. At the very least assuming same amplifier power or costs of amplification we know that a portion of the amp power isn’t filtered out by the network.

Now if you want to ignore the costs of amplification and hence cost altogether then you may have a point. But for most people cost is a real constraint.

Then even when cost is not so much of a constraint can you make something like a Beosound 90 with all passive components? One would only try to make an argument for passive design. Can’t think of any other reason.
 
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q3cpma

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Umm, bet it has ... #Science

As far as I know CAD designed passive networks and active solutions don't have and audible differences.


Why would they ?

Evidence anyone or just lay intuition..
Isn't a high order passive crossover expensive to do? That would be the main "obvious" difference to me.
 

LTig

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If you go higher in frequency than the EMK controlled area, there is an optimal drive-resistance for the tweeter. High damping factor is irrelevant in this area. That means that the tweeter CAN sound better with for example a resistor in series about 4 Ohm. Or not. You have to try it and measure the results.

I have investigated those things in two years.

This is one of the few disadvantages with directly coupled amplifiers to the loudspeaker. But as I wrote, It can be easily cured.

Ofcourse you have to compensate for the slightly different frequency response you get while driving a tweeter with high resistance.
Its easy to do with a dsp.
Would you mind to elaborate a bit more about your claim that a tweeter could sound better when driven with a series resistor? And which measurements backup your claim?. I have difficulties to find a physical cause.
If you do think about starting a new thread.
 

Thomas savage

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I don’t think it’s that. Ignore the potential for DSP crossover networks which may not be feasible in the analog domain which is another topic.


It is the ability to place impedance matched amps after the crossover. At the very least assuming same amplifier power or costs of amplification we know that a portion of the amp power isn’t filtered out by the network.

Now if you want to ignore the costs of amplification and hence cost altogether then you may have a point. But for most people cost is a real constraint.

Then even when cost is not so much of a constraint can you make something like a Beosound 90 with all passive components? One would only try to make an argument for passive design. Can’t think of any other reason.
What's a real issue is keeping things going, things fail if it's in one box that means trouble.

And yes you can make a better sounding speaker or music solution than the 90 and for less money.

Have you heard them ?

So again, anyone have data , real data thats valid to humans not paper worshipers that suggests passive networks are inferior.

Let's for now forget we want to not put everything in one box that can't be easily repaired, fancy taking a 90 back in 10 years ? Lol
 

mhardy6647

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Psychology is always involved anyway, and mine includes the keep it simple concept - iow, apply the same principle that people apply to analog systems - minimise boxes, cables, gadgets, and crossover components. So [...well...] it is not so different from what I began with a while ago - turntable, amplifier, speakers. Or turntable[+cartridge, perhaps.] :)

[Really. :( This software, in its wisdom, :rolleyes: sees fit to remove the double spaces I use between sentences. ...However, I am supposed to accept the apostrophe plurals psychosis and so on.]
I'm right there with you with the double space after a period. Next thing you know, they'll be takin' out Oxford commas!

;)

PS Don't get me started about ... ahem... possessive plural's :eek:
(EDIT: and I did do that on purpose, for effect only -- lest you start beatin' your head 'gainst the monitor or anythin'...)
 

LTig

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Surely AVRs are sold to people who think it will be better for watching films not listening to music???
I don't know anybody who has bought one for music listening.
I did, for a 2.1 system. It was not planned though. A a colleague came with his Marantz 7701 to my home to have a problem fixed (it was a user error), and borrowed it to me over the weekend. I liked the sound more than what I had, and I liked that I could replace several units (DAC, preamp, FM-Tuner) by one and be able to switch HDMI ports, so I bought a 7701 next day for € 999.- (big deal).

Some 5 years later I replaced it with a Classé Sigma SSP, again not planned. My wife bought one for € 2000.- (big deal on black Friday) for a 2.0 system in her room, to get rid of too many separates, and switch HDMI sources easily (Sat-TV, BD-player, PC). The Classè was the only one which fit in her rack and it was cheaper than all other AVPs the shop had. Of course I had to try it in my system and its sound was cleaner than the Marantz, so I bought the last SSP they had next day.

Of course, this was before I found ASR and I tested subjectively w/o matched leveling ... :facepalm:
 

srrxr71

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What's a real issue is keeping things going, things fail if it's in one box that means trouble.

And yes you can make a better sounding speaker or music solution than the 90 and for less money.

Have you heard them ?

So again, anyone have data , real data thats valid to humans not paper worshipers that suggests passive networks are inferior.

Let's for now forget we want to not put everything in one box that can't be easily repaired, fancy taking a 90 back in 10 years ? Lol

Okay how about D&D 8c for less than $10k. Any examples?
 
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