Why do passive speakers still exist?

[thewas]

Yes I remember these Philips units. Happy to see that they are still working.

My larger 1978 Philips MFB also just needed recently only few new electrolytic caps in their power supplies:

Please note the interesting graphs and advanced for their time location filters:

Their pair matching is still excellent and mostly less then 0,5 dB

and on-axis they are not significantly less linear than my modern ex Genelecs

 

[RayDunzl]

My larger 1978 Philips MFB

Another example of a non mirror-imaged asymmetical speaker, the reasons for which, I have never understood.

Unless shown above are two rights or two lefts...

 

[thewas]

Another example of a non mirror-imaged asymmetical speaker, the reasons for which, I have never understood.

Unless shown above are two rights or two lefts...

We should keep in mind it was 1978 and I guess they considered the few centimeters image shift as not so important vs the production and logistic cost difference having to offer two models. I also would prefer they would exist, but mainly for optical reasons at above 2 meters listeing distance its not really an audible problem.

 

[restorer-john]

Another example of a non mirror-imaged asymmetical speaker, the reasons for which, I have never understood.

Twice as many manufacturing/distributing and stocking/retailing SKUs as mirror imaged. More issues when one is damaged in transport, another pair has to be sent as replacement or a second pair cannibalized.

Yamaha always mirror imaged their pairs and even symmetrical designs were labelled with a distinct L and R suffix, but that wasn't to say sometimes serial numbers didn't match/consecutive when the retailers sold them.

I have no problem with non-symmetrical designs. My Infinity Reference studio monitors are not mirror imaged and have big offsets on the drivers. The classic JBL Century L100 wasn't mirror imaged (except in the first iteration- symmetrical). What about front ported speakers where the port is on the right side on both speakers?

 

[Zvu]

1. Passive components distortion ? That should be really really really ****** components to have higher distortion than the drivers used (regardless of how low thd is in drivers). If you use components that bad, you will get bad measurements. That being said, you don't have to buy the expensive ones. Jantzen air coils (very fair prices at HiFicollective), Bennic/Wima 63V caps and regular 10W ceramic resistors will do. If you can't afford it, please stay away from loudspeaker building.

2. Active speakers are large chunk of the market ? True. But as always there are parameters that aren't included here. Sales of passive loudspeakers is down, no question about that. But number od passive loudspeakers goes up every year. With so many diy projects on the web, more and more people are making passive loudspeakers. Substantiated with good measurements and detailed planns, there is a pair for everyone of every shape, color and size. If you live in a house and have a living room larger than 40m2 i would really like to see what is the number of active loudspeakers that will play loud enough with dynamic range to spare and will cost under 10k€. For that kind of money you will buy a powerful amplifier and make (or someone will make it for you) loudspeakers large enough for the room, finished the way you want/like with money to spare.

3. Flatter frequency response and phase response in actives ? Well, sometimes yes if your actives are dsp powered. You can set the delay for woofer on axis to get perfect phase and frequency response. Trouble is that dsp isn't magic and you will get good phase response ONLY at that one axis. As soon you go off axis you can kiss you alignment good buy if you didn't do physical acoustic centers alignment at Z axis. Given that most of us are using some computers it is quite easy and inexpensive to apply some dsp action through pc for music on to passive speakers. That will get it at the level with best active speakers and costs nothing. And you don't need 6 dsp and amplifier channels of mediocre amp/preamp chips with high noise to correct the sound. Depending on the passive loudspeaker designer, a sound can benefit from biamping or not. I like to see separate amplifier for woofers if the impedance is complex - it could actually save some money for the main amp.

ONLY type of loudspeakers that make correct use of DSP and its abilities are SBIR loudspeakers. Those show true progress in loudspeaker design (Kii3, Bang&Olufsen Beolab 90, D&D 8C, Lexicon SL-1). There all the dsp hype is not hype - it is actually justified. Still, i don't like to see everything crammed up in loudspeaker cabinet. I really like what Axiom Audio does with their dsp powered loudspeakers. Drivers in the cabinets, electronics out. Putting electronics in speaker cabinet is always a compromise and it showed quite difficult/expensive to solve problems that arise because of that.

Passive speakers are here to stay for a long time and not because of inertia of some kind, but because they are still competitive. If they become obsolete, they will perish.

 

[Dialectic]

My larger 1978 Philips MFB also just needed recently only few new electrolytic caps in their power supplies:

View attachment 95735

Please note the interesting graphs and advanced for their time location filters:

View attachment 95736

Their pair matching is still excellent and mostly less then 0,5 dB

View attachment 95737

and on-axis they are not significantly less linear than my modern ex Genelecs

View attachment 95739

Back in the days when the manufacturer put the measurements on front of the speakers...

 

[Pearljam5000]

1. Passive components distortion ? That should be really really really ****** components to have higher distortion than the drivers used (regardless of how low thd is in drivers). If you use components that bad, you will get bad measurements. That being said, you don't have to buy the expensive ones. Jantzen air coils (very fair prices at HiFicollective), Bennic/Wima 63V caps and regular 10W ceramic resistors will do. If you can't afford it, please stay away from loudspeaker building.

2. Active speakers are large chunk of the market ? True. But as always there are parameters that aren't included here. Sales of passive loudspeakers is down, no question about that. But number od passive loudspeakers goes up every year. With so many diy projects on the web, more and more people are making passive loudspeakers. Substantiated with good measurements and detailed planns, there is a pair for everyone of every shape, color and size. If you live in a house and have a living room larger than 40m2 i would really like to see what is the number of active loudspeakers that will play loud enough with dynamic range to spare and will cost under 10k€. For that kind of money you will buy a powerful amplifier and make (or someone will make it for you) loudspeakers large enough for the room, finished the way you want/like with money to spare.

3. Flatter frequency response and phase response in actives ? Well, sometimes yes if your actives are dsp powered. You can set the delay for woofer on axis to get perfect phase and frequency response. Trouble is that dsp isn't magic and you will get good phase response ONLY at that one axis. As soon you go off axis you can kiss you alignment good buy if you didn't do physical acoustic centers alignment at Z axis. Given that most of us are using some computers it is quite easy and inexpensive to apply some dsp action through pc for music on to passive speakers. That will get it at the level with best active speakers and costs nothing. And you don't need 6 dsp and amplifier channels of mediocre amp/preamp chips with high noise to correct the sound. Depending on the passive loudspeaker designer, a sound can benefit from biamping or not. I like to see separate amplifier for woofers if the impedance is complex - it could actually save some money for the main amp.

ONLY type of loudspeakers that make correct use of DSP and its abilities are SBIR loudspeakers. Those show true progress in loudspeaker design (Kii3, Bang&Olufsen Beolab 90, D&D 8C, Lexicon SL-1). There all the dsp hype is not hype - it is actually justified. Still, i don't like to see everything crammed up in loudspeaker cabinet. I really like what Axiom Audio does with their dsp powered loudspeakers. Drivers in the cabinets, electronics out. Putting electronics in speaker cabinet is always a compromise and it showed quite difficult/expensive to solve problems that arise because of that.

Passive speakers are here to stay for a long time and not because of inertia of some kind, but because they are still competitive. If they become obsolete, they will perish.

Technically they are obsolete, but there's always going to be a market for them.

 

[Zvu]

Technically they are obsolete, but there's always going to be a market for them.

Technically, nuclear power plants and internal combustion engines were obsolete more than 50 years ago. Untill actives become as reliable as passives, they will stay here. Unless you put your shoe in the cone, the passive will always work.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Technically, nuclear power plants and internal combustion engines were obsolete more than 50 years ago. Untill actives become as reliable as passives, they will stay here. Unless you put your shoe in the cone, the passive will always work.

Who says they're not as reliable?
If your external amplifier breaks in 20 years and stops working, and then you fix it, same thing with the actives, only difference is that you fix the built in amp instead (if it even needs fixing)

 

[Zvu]

I am saying it.

Maybe you'll fix it, but maybe you can't fix it so you must replace it. Too much machine soldered smd components in those inbuilt amp/dsp/dac modules - they had to use smd to keep the price and size under controll. Good luck with that in 99.9% of currently available actives. You could maybe plug the hole and use different electronics but you'd have to know transfer functions for all the drivers. I know only of JBL M2 that gave those free.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Genelec promises parts up to 30 years after purchase, not to mention their amazing reputation of their monitors lasting 20 years +, with no problems so I'm not particularly worried.

 

[Zvu]

I swear that if Genelec and Neumann didn't exist of tommorow, this forum would implode

What about all of the other 2000000 brands of actives available for puchase ?

So, buy Genelec or buy passive ?

I can live with that

 

[Pearljam5000]

I swear that if Genelec and Neumann didn't exist of tommorow, this forum would implode

What about all of the other 2000000 brands of actives available for puchase ?

So, buy Genelec or buy passive ?

I can live with that

Lol
I don't even consider other brands because of reliability.

 

[jgazal]

(...)
It is a little similar with the mechanical DSLR versus the digital camera.
You only keep the Leica on the field through centuries.
Digital equipment are for instant use and later going to the trash.
I may have five old digital cameras: they are obsolete.
But I go on buying digital camera.
(...)

(...)
Maybe you'll fix it, but maybe you can't fix it so you must replace it. Too much machine soldered smd components in those inbuilt amp/dsp/dac modules - they had to use smd to keep the price and size under controll. Good luck with that in 99.9% of currently available actives. You could maybe plug the hole and use different electronics but you'd have to know transfer functions for all the drivers. I know only of JBL M2 that gave those free.

I wish we had for speakers something similar to what single lens reflex represent for cameras.
Speakon to access the drivers separately and their transfer function.
Being able to swap electronics guarantees the right to repair.
I don’t understand why public address models allow that and consumer models don’t.
Perhaps I should just buy a dbx venue and a JBL VT4886 for my living room...

 

[Zvu]

Lol
I don't even consider other brands because of reliability.

Well there's your answer to the thread tittle.

Not everybody likes the sound and looks of Genelecs.

And, if you have large room, you can do much better in diy for that much money.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Well there's your answer to the thread tittle.

Not everybody likes the sound and looks of Genelecs.

And, if you have large room, you can do much better in diy for that much money.

I'm not saying other brands are garbage, I'm just saying i prefer their extreme reliability, it's like buying a Toyota, you don't buy it because of the reliability, it just helps you make the final decision.
Plus the chances of keeping a pair of monitors for 30 years is pretty low, you might get bored with them in 5 years, sell them for not a lot less (they keep their value more than passives) and move on, so i don't see a special reason to be worried

 

[Zvu]

You've asked the question - i gave my version of answer.

This very much reminds me of cheap 5.1 surround systems hype. As soon the price went down, everyone hurried to replace their old obsolete passive speakers and amplifiers. I bought so much cool stuff back then. People left whole collections of LP's in front of their yards and apartments. When those 5.1 begun to brake, things changed quite fast. I'm seing similar hype now for soundbars and cheap actives. You have to pay at least 250-300€ for a decent sounding soundbar or actives.

In my oppinion, if you buy actives, buy if it has any real advantage - as is the case with Kii3, Beolab 90, D&D and Lexicon. If you buy Genelec, you're paying a whole lot of money just to be able to put everything in that one cabinet. Given the quality of components they are using, their price is to high.

Once more - active vs passive comparison:

https://heissmann-acoustics.de/dxt-mon-vs-neumann-kh-120a/

 

[Pearljam5000]

You've asked the question - i gave my version of answer.

This very much reminds me of cheap 5.1 surround systems hype. As soon the price went down, everyone hurried to replace their old obsolete passive speakers and amplifiers. I bought so much cool stuff back then. People left whole collections of LP's in front of their yards and apartments. When those 5.1 begun to brake, things changed quite fast. I'm seing similar hype now for soundbars and cheap actives. You have to pay at least 250-300€ for a decent sounding soundbar or actives.

In my oppinion, if you buy actives, buy if it has any real advantage - as is the case with Kii3, Beolab 90, D&D and Lexicon. If you buy Genelec, you're paying a whole lot of money just to be able to put everything in that one cabinet. Given the quality of components they are using, their price is to high.

Once more - active vs passive comparison:

https://heissmann-acoustics.de/dxt-mon-vs-neumann-kh-120a/

What's the difference between a Genelec 8351B and a Kii Three? They're both about the same, and they put everything in the same cabinet

 

[StefaanE]

Actually, a cheap passive speaker might not be more reliable than a cheap active speaker. It’s not that there are no electronics in a passive speaker, just less.

 

[levimax]

Technically they are obsolete.

I think it is interesting that people on this forum focus on one small difference (passive vs active) as defining the whole speaker. It is probably because most here are very comfortable in the "electronic world" and look for solutions there. The reality of speakers is that their performance is determined 90%+ by mechanical properties and electronics have very little to do with it beyond "fine tuning" in the case of a mechanically well made and designed speaker or "forcing" an electronic solution on a bad mechanical design which is always going to have limited success.