Why do passive speakers still exist?

[sigbergaudio]

There's a common wisdom saying isn't there? It's either going to break down in the first x months or not for many years...

Then it sounds like we're in agreeement. It's likely to break down during warranty, or not at all. So sounds like not much to worry about.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Doubt that very much, the synergy claim is pretty much the whole subjective thing. The power is adequate or it is not, it is clean enough or it is not, the speakers are adequate to the task or not. The notion that these really small differences are somehow audible is questionable. What exactly about actives are guaranteed to be better in an audible sense, assuming the passive gear is able to be audibly transparent?

The main advantage isn't "synergy", but individual amps to each channel (woofer, mid, tweeter, etc), and accompanying DSP. This enables things that just isn't possible in a passive design, like for instance the Dutch Dutch 8C.

Through the same DSP you also have more powerful control over both crossovers and general ability to modify frequency response and timing - which allows you to build better crossovers quicker. It is of course up to the company whether they will utilize this to provide a better product at the same price point, or just earn more money.

 

[EJ3]

That sounds pretty sweet. Loads of power available. I like that.
I used a Coustic XM-7 car active crossover with a modified by me power supply to get clean power to it.
View attachment 95220

I am using Pioneer car audio 12" dual 4 Ohm voice coil subs rewired (by me) to 2 ohms as the speakers in my 2 sub cabinets. You and I obviously look out of the 'home' audio box for things that work. This looks very interesting. I need to relearn soldering (I used to sweat lead for cast iron pipes, solder copper pipes and solder electrical wiring for automotive use (care stereo, electric fans [before most factories thought of using them], squirrel cage fans for VW & Porsche air cooled boxer style racing engines). Rarely (but occasionally) did electronics. And now that I have time, I don't have the spare money that I had. I'm an only child (my father passed away 8 years ago) helping my elderly mother who recently had some surgery & will need to get some more. I am not quite retirement age yet but currently just doing odd jobs enough to pay my way. Hopefully my mother's stuff will turn out alright & I can get back to doing my own business again & make up for lost time (read lost income). But she is my priority at the moment.

 

[Doodski]

I am using Pioneer car audio 12" dual 4 Ohm voice coil subs rewired (by me) to 2 ohms as the speakers in my 2 sub cabinets. You and I obviously look out of the 'home' audio box for things that work. This looks very interesting. I need to relearn soldering (I used to sweat lead for cast iron pipes, solder copper pipes and solder electrical wiring for automotive use (care stereo, electric fans [before most factories thought of using them], squirrel cage fans for VW & Porsche air cooled boxer style racing engines). Rarely (but occasionally) did electronics. And now that I have time, I don't have the spare money that I had. I'm an only child (my father passed away 8 years ago) helping my elderly mother who recently had some surgery & will need to get some more. I am not quite retirement age yet but currently just doing odd jobs enough to pay my way. Hopefully my mother's stuff will turn out alright & I can get back to doing my own business again & make up for lost time (read lost income). But she is my priority at the moment.

I hope everything works out for your mother.
When I got that car audio crossover I was specializing in car audio and mechatronics repair and so I got a great deal on that $1200.00 crossover. I think I got it for about $250.00 from the wholesaler that I had service agreements with. It was expensive at the time. Now one can probably pick one up for $50.00 on ebay. Car audio is a lot better than many people think and integrates very well into a home audio setup.

 

[EJ3]

That sounds pretty sweet. Loads of power available. I like that.
I used a Coustic XM-7 car active crossover with a modified by me power supply to get clean power to it.
View attachment 95220

I forgot to mention this: it has an awesome feature, just pop the control section off, and use a straight through RJ-45 cable and bring the controls up wherever you need them for tuning. Just put the dinky one back in to your permanent location when you're done. The real THD (102 spec) may or may not be good enough to be transparent though. Certainly good enough for cars. I've seen them but never used one. GREAT IDEA!

 

[restorer-john]

I think it is not surprising since, for many, the preoccupation is with the journey (hifi as a hobby) and not the goal (listening to music reproduced as accurately as possible). It is made clear to me in this thread and in others when individuals cite the inability to choose their own amplifiers as a reason for rejecting active loudspeakers.

It's a perfectly valid reason to reject active louspeakers, especially where the manufacturers neglect to provide performance specifications for the very amplifiers inside the speakers they are selling. Other than rather optimistic power output numbers, all the specs are for the loudspeaker as a whole and deliberately incomplete in most cases or hopelessly inadequate in others.

It's all very well to take an ICEpower or Hypex plate amp data sheet number for power and trumpet those numbers, but nobody knows exactly how much actual power the drivers concerned absorb from those amplifiers and whether the amplifiers ever get to swing those headline numbers in the first place.

We are seeing brands advertising actives with multi hundred watt HF amplifiers driving tweeters and midranges. Now we all know that is complete and utter fantasy. The lies are pouring out like water from a bucket full of bullet holes. Tweeters are generally single figure watts before the tiny voice coils vaporize. Midranges can absorb mere 10s of watts. It's only the bass drivers where genuine multi hundred watt figures can be absorbed, and even then, not for long.

I'd like to see active speakers where the flat stage power amplifier/s could be slid out, like a commodity/replaceable unit, with standard gains and levels, all fit into a defacto form factor. The front end, DSP, all the smarts and the cabinet/speakers can either come with a factory powerstage unit or people could use alternatives with better figures.

 

[Doodski]

I forgot to mention this: it has an awesome feature, just pop the control section off, and use a straight through RJ-45 cable and bring the controls up wherever you need them for tuning. Just put the dinky one back in to your permanent location when you're done. The real THD (102 spec) may or may not be good enough to be transparent though. Certainly good enough for cars. I've seen them but never used one. GREAT IDEA!

The new DSP crossovers for cars are outrageous. For about $400.00 one can have a massive EQ with multiple parametric adjustments, crossover controls and sub outputs. Really nice gear for any audio system.

 

[Doodski]

It's a perfectly valid reason to reject active louspeakers, especially where the manufacturers neglect to provide performance specifications for the very amplifiers inside the speakers they are selling. Other than rather optimistic power output numbers, all the specs are for the loudspeaker as a whole and deliberately incomplete in most cases or hopelessly inadequate in others.

It's all very well to take an ICEpower or Hypex plate amp data sheet number for power and trumpet those numbers, but nobody knows exactly how much actual power the drivers concerned absorb from those amplifiers and whether the amplifiers ever get to swing those headline numbers in the first place.

We are seeing brands advertising actives with multi hundred watt HF amplifiers driving tweeters and midranges. Now we all know that is complete and utter fantasy. The lies are pouring out like water from a bucket full of bullet holes. Tweeters are generally single figure watts before the tiny voice coils vaporize. Midranges can absorb mere 10s of watts. It's only the bass drivers where genuine multi hundred watt figures can be absorbed, and even then, not for long.

I'd like to see active speakers where the flat stage power amplifier/s could be slid out, like a commodity/replaceable unit, with standard gains and levels, all fit into a defacto form factor. The front end, DSP, all the smarts and the cabinet/speakers can either come with a factory powerstage unit or people could use alternatives with better figures.

Agreed on the power claims being outlandish, apparently grossly exaggerated and obviously more than the mids and tweets can manage. As per modular standardized amp modules I think you're expecting too much. There would need to be engineering association(s) specs and standards applied. It would be great though. I have to admit after seeing the latest active speaker test done by @amirm I was very impressed with it. I would love to hear them and I don't think I've ever heard a speaker that flat. I am a tweaker and would probably EQ the heck out of them anyway.

 

[thewas]

I see also in this discussion in-house design and in-house manufacturing getting mixed up.
Is a driver that for example Genelec has designed/modified in-house and built by a large old OEM like Peerless to their specs worse than one they also have produced in-house?
Not really, personally I would actually trust the manufacturing and production quality of a such an OEM that doesn't do anything else since decades more, same for car and other parts.
In-house manufacturing has nowadays also often in the loudspeaker world a bit of a highend snakeoil character as its often used from small manufacturers as a selling argument, "we built our woofers or out AMTs" ourselves", so what?

 

[bennybbbx]

I do not know the market in Germany but there are less expensive devices with either (RCA rather than XLR) or (fewer channels). Any analog preamp should do it for stereo.

I look for (analog) preamps but did not find a good price preamp that have remote control and input switch possible over remote control. Can you post a link ?. So i am 99.9% sure that on Hifi market active speakers are mostly not used because there are no preamps for that solution for a good price. And only a preamp(with surround) with XLR or symetrical out can be much cheaper as a Power Amp included AVR. so around 100-200$

 

[stevenswall]

Who here has been personally victimized by an active speaker (besides JBL) that broke on them?

 

[StefaanE]

Storm Audio has a processor that will do it via AES/EBU. Also, there are JBL processors with Dante outputs.

Thanks Kal!
I had a gander at the Stormaudio website, and it’s pretty thin on details. And prices. The same applies to the websites of their European dealers. Methinks they want you to buy a full home theatre service but that’s beyond my budget (and I prefer to do my own installation).
The JBL Synthesis SDP-55 has a very nice DAC (so they say), which leads me to believe they’re into analogue outputs. After all, a digital sound processor doesn’t need a DAC — the active speakers do the conversion.
Or maybe I just don’t get it .

 

[thewas]

Who here has been personally victimized by an active speaker (besides JBL) that broke on them?

Well, the electronics of my really advanced 42 year old Philips MFB (with motional feedback woofers and 3 location filters!) failed recently but it was just some electrolytic caps in the power supply circuit, no electrolytic caps are used in the signal path but only MKT, so I cant really complain.

 

[Doodski]

Who here has been personally victimized by an active speaker (besides JBL) that broke on them?

I've seen maybe ~10 subwoofers with blown amps and some PC speakers with blown output ICs. The subwoofer amp plates where either replaced by the manufacturer or where repaired. Other than that I've seen nothing else.

 

[Sancus]

\
The JBL Synthesis SDP-55 has a very nice DAC (so they say), which leads me to believe they’re into analogue outputs. After all, a digital sound processor doesn’t need a DAC — the active speakers do the conversion.
Or maybe I just don’t get it .

It has both, so in theory you could, for example, use Dante for your surrounds and heights, and use analog outputs for your fronts that are near the SDP-55. Dante -> AES3 adapters aren't free, though, and the whole thing still has a ridiculously long list of bugs and strangeness for a $6000 piece of gear.

 

[ttimer]

Not sure why XLR is a nightmare, but anyway you could use RCA if that helps?

For domestic use, i'd like speaker cables to be unobtrusive, easy to run and easy to hide. XLR does none of that. Not (easily) available in white, thick, not compliant, bulky connectors don't fit through gaps or through cable channels, the list goes on. Rca is a bit better, but then you need to mess with adapters and cant use balanced inputs, which some actives require to reduce noise.
Passive cables are just infinitely better in this regard, can even run them under carpets.

Admittedly, this is not important to the folks who build their rooms around their audio equipment. I might just not be hardcore enough to consider that normal.

 

[Sancus]

For domestic use, i'd like speaker cables to be unobtrusive, easy to run and easy to hide. XLR does none of that. Not available in white, thick, not compliant, bulky connectors don't fit through gaps or through cable channels, the list goes on.

XLR is very much available in white, all my XLR cables are white! XLR snakes make the thickness issue less painful. I can't disagree about the bulky connectors, but on the other hand, locking connectors are infinitely superior to non-locking connectors and the ability to just trivially connect two XLR cables together when need be is handy.

Overall I don't think it's a big deal, the separate requirement for power is a bit more of a pain.

 

[Ilkka Rissanen]

I think were is the operative word there

Do you have a source for this?

If the amps are built in-house, I'll be bowled over.

If the drivers are built in-house and not spec'd to Tymphany or similar to be produced off-shore, I'll be... moderately surprised.

Hi,

I can confirm that 100% of the electronics and 100% of the drivers in all of The Ones models (that would be 8331A, 8341A, 8351A/B and 8361A) are built, tested and assembled in-house at Genelec factory in Iisalmi, Finland. We are very proud to be able to say that.

Of course we buy well-known electronic components from our suppliers, and we don't have our own iron mill to mould the raw baskets, t-yokes etc, but we have gone as far as it is possible to have everything in our own hands when it comes to manufacturing of these monitoring loudspeakers. Once the world settles again, you are very welcome to visit us and see how it is all done.

 

[StefaanE]

It has both, so in theory you could, for example, use Dante for your surrounds and heights, and use analog outputs for your fronts that are near the SDP-55. Dante -> AES3 adapters aren't free, though, and the whole thing still has a ridiculously long list of bugs and strangeness for a $6000 piece of gear.

OK, I get they idea behind Dante, but it seems overkill for a domestic setup. Basically, I’d like to see something like the Canton Smart Connect https://www.canton.de/en/smart/smart-connect-5.1 which controls up to 8 their wireless speakers (and has six analogue pre-outs), but with S/PDIF or XLR/AES outputs instead of the proprietary wireless connections.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Are those class D amplifiers used? I am in doubt about the longevity of class D amps. Again, I am not saying I know my position is anything more than a musing not fact. And if the amps in the M33 are actually class D, that may be an exception and as you know the exception does not prove the rule. Perhaps I am as wrong as wrong can be, totally acknowledge that, but I would have to really be confident to be putting down 1o and 15 thousand dollars for main system actives. I actually would be open to it once I was extremely confident in the longevity, but support moving forward is important.

I agree.
Not sure there were any class-D amps 20 years ago, certainly not in general use at a reasonable power level. Meridian made their own amps, so it will be all old fashioned class A/B amp and linear power supply.
It is true that the one thing we don't know about modern high performance Class-D and smps are longevity. In a world where something 5 years old is considered obsolete and no longer gets software updates etc and one is expected to buy a new one this may be the new normal.
My iMac computer I use(d) for streaming is slow and inconvenient purely because it is either no longer supported or even deliberately hobbled to make users thing they need a new one. This makes me angry because when I was first writing software (40 years ago mind you) 128k of RAM was a lot and the processors were little 8-bit affairs but I still had programmes which ran in "real-time" fast enough to safely run a wind tunnel. The iMac is millions of times bigger and faster in principle but not in practice.
So personally, after being an early adopter of file based music almost 20 years ago, I ain't buying any "modern" electronics for domestic use any more. I don't consider the benefits worth the pain.

I think it is far more likely that a modern active monitor will become obsolete many years before it stops good, so your term of 15 years, from now, is probably an underestimate in reality, but probably because of it having software, firmware of chip-sets which are no longer supported.

I may buy some KH420 or KH310 Neumann active monitors, the rest - no chance.