Why do I hear difference between FLAC and AIFF?

[sangbro]

Since you use XLD, you can write/edit a .cue file using TextEdit and enter the following text. This should allow you to create a file containing the first 10 seconds of the song.

PERFORMER "AAAA"
TITLE "TITLE"
FILE "FILE.flac" WAVE

TRACK 01 AUDIO
PERFORMER "PERFORMER"
TITLE "1"
INDEX 01 00:00:00

TRACK 02 AUDIO
PERFORMER "PERFORMER"
TITLE "2"
INDEX 01 00:10:00

Oh. Didn’t known that. I’ll try.
Any idea how to make something equivalent to Aiff file? Btw Again, I still think there might be something in the middle(handling), not in the file.

 

[somebodyelse]

You can compare the AIFF and FLAC versions of the same content with DeltaWave - they should be identical. If that's the case then something is wrong in your playback chain, but it may be difficult to track down with certainty where it's going wrong. I'm assuming for now that there's a difference you can reliably ABX, which is another test that should be done. If it's Airplay 1 you might be able to capture and decode the network traffic to see whether the same data is being sent. Beyond that you'd be taking your speakers apart to attach measurement probes which I assume you won't want to do. It's not unknown for bluetooth headphone manufacturers to apply different EQ depending on which codec is used, with no technical justification I'm aware of. I'd hope B&W weren't up to that sort of trick.

 

[Chromatischism]

You could rule out some variables by listening to the files with headphones on a mobile device, no streaming.

 

[danadam]

One possible cause could be replay gain. If the FLACs have replay gain tags then they would play at different volume than the AIFF.

I do not have any kind of professional recording device except my iPhone.

They said to upload the files, not the recordings of the files being played.

so
I used XLD (popular among mac users to rip CD), and used the default (meaning I didn’t do anything) FLAC setting.

For AIFF, I used iTUNE CD ripping function (also default).

So you used 2 different programs to rip the CD, one to FLAC and another to AIFF? How about converting that FLAC to AIFF and comparing that?

 

[Zensō]

This is most likely a difference in playback volume as described above. You can do a null test to know for sure.

https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-null-test-your-gear-part-1--cms-22425

 

[sangbro]

You can compare the AIFF and FLAC versions of the same content with DeltaWave - they should be identical. If that's the case then something is wrong in your playback chain, but it may be difficult to track down with certainty where it's going wrong. I'm assuming for now that there's a difference you can reliably ABX, which is another test that should be done. If it's Airplay 1 you might be able to capture and decode the network traffic to see whether the same data is being sent. Beyond that you'd be taking your speakers apart to attach measurement probes which I assume you won't want to do. It's not unknown for bluetooth headphone manufacturers to apply different EQ depending on which codec is used, with no technical justification I'm aware of. I'd hope B&W weren't up to that sort of trick.

This sounds easy enough for me to try.

I didn’t know that AIrplay 1 had such a good feature. Don’t understand why Apple makes things seemingly simpler yet un-selectable.
(for example, music app used to choose specific streaming quality, now it has become kinda vague.)


I keep saying this, I’m not saying there is difference between files. What I’m really curious is whether there is any kind of trick/something during middle process depending on Codec. Or whether there is something with my way of using the device.

 

[sangbro]

You could rule out some variables by listening to the files with headphones on a mobile device, no streaming.

I can try but without good headphone this kind of difference is much harder to notice honestly.

It’s like determine FLAC vs 320bps with iPhone bundle earphone. Still I think I will try to check whether there is indeed something during wireless process.

 

[sangbro]

One possible cause could be replay gain. If the FLACs have replay gain tags then they would play at different volume than the AIFF.


They said to upload the files, not the recordings of the files being played.


So you used 2 different programs to rip the CD, one to FLAC and another to AIFF? How about converting that FLAC to AIFF and comparing that?

I have not thought about converting.

I didn’t pay any attention to tags, (as I said I just use XLD as it is.) I will check.

 

[sangbro]

This is most likely a difference in playback volume as described above. You can do a null test to know for sure.

https://music.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-null-test-your-gear-part-1--cms-22425

I see. Still, when I manually match the volume when I play the song, I should be able to remove difference. Isn’t it?

 

[sangbro]

First of all, I appreciate all the input.

At this point, I think I need to make one thing clear - I’m not saying there is difference between FLAC and AIFF techinically.

I’m suspecting there is something to look at in the middle process. (Decoding process? Wireless communication process?)
This might be B&W formation duo specific problem/limitation.

Just as an example, I want to share this story.

- One day, all of a sudden I start to listen continuous popping noise and interruption when I listen to music. I google searched and though this kind of thing seems common, yet I can’t find solutions for me. Popping noise happen randomly with any song during play. I turn on/off, check the firmware, reset the device, restart iPhone (streaming device), change the song, check the network status, re-set up basically everything. Still hear the noise. So I document it and talk to B&W technical support.
The support team told me to send me the units for service since they think there should a problem with my speakers.

- Before sending the unit, I just tried one more thing and solve the problem.
Every time I hear popping noise/interruption, my kid is watching something with iPad. (Streaming service)
Before I didn’t notice because my kid used to be outside in school. (Due to covid, my kid couldn’t go school.)

Once there is no one using the internet streaming service, the popping noise is gone, no interruption, no problem.

I report this to B&W and the technical support told me that even though this should not happen, yet also there is a possibility. (?)
Especially when I stream (play music wirelessly) relative big file such as flac (compared to mp3, 256-320kbps file), traffic congestion might cause this though technically this should not happen (?) thanks to their technology according to B&W team.
(I use Orbi routers right next to speaker.)

I have not read something similar answers when I google search the solution.
- Like, when you stream music and suddenly hear popping sounds and interruption that used to not happen, check if other devices use video streaming service in the same network since the traffic can cause this kind of thing.

Maybe I have not found one. I read about only dozen cases.

Anyway, what I want to say is, I want to check if there is any potential reason that I’m not aware of that causes a problem that I describe.

- I need to check the setting when I rip
- B&W playing some tricks
- Apple airplay playing some tricks
- Flacbox app playing some tricks
- When flac is decompressed somehow there‘s any kind of slowing down/limitation (I don’t know how I can describe with technically correct terms.)

 

[somebodyelse]

I didn’t know that AIrplay 1 had such a good feature. Don’t understand why Apple makes things seemingly simpler yet un-selectable.
(for example, music app used to choose specific streaming quality, now it has become kinda vague.)

Which feature do you mean? I mentioned AirPlay 1 because the keys were cracked, opening the possibility of inspecting the content with publicly available tools. AFAIK the AirPlay 2 keys haven't been cracked yet, so we can't be sure what's actually being sent.

Hiding the complexity is a large part of Apple's success. Too many options confuse people, so they make a choice and hide or remove the choice. For most of their customers it works most of the time. The rest of the time most of their customers put up with it.

 

[sangbro]

Which feature do you mean? I mentioned AirPlay 1 because the keys were cracked, opening the possibility of inspecting the content with publicly available tools. AFAIK the AirPlay 2 keys haven't been cracked yet, so we can't be sure what's actually being sent.

Hiding the complexity is a large part of Apple's success. Too many options confuse people, so they make a choice and hide or remove the choice. For most of their customers it works most of the time. The rest of the time most of their customers put up with it.

Simply incorrect word choice. I mean I didn’t know I can do that with Airplay 1.

Yeah. That might be true. I like its simplicity concept, and the idea that “simply it works”. But I wish at least there is a choice.
I’ve used apple product for little more than 20 years now, my love and hate relationship.
Now I simply don’t want to deal with any complexity (getting old, already too many urgent problems to be dealt with), so I keep using Apple
but I (maybe finally, maybe just personally) begin to think Apple begins to make things over complicate by trying to make it simple.

 

[Chromatischism]

I think both can be converted back to .wav, right? Maybe do that and see if they end up sounding the same.

 

[somebodyelse]

I mean I didn’t know I can do that with Airplay 1.

Note that I didn't say it would be easy https://weberblog.net/apple-airplay-capture/ should give you an idea. If the RAOP protocol hasn't been added to Wireshark you'd need to find out how to decode it with something like shairplay.

I usually get to hear about it when it Just Failed™ in a conversation starting "You know about computers..." so I may be biased. In the free software world you get similar arguments about KDE giving you every option under the sun vs. Gnome having a simplified version, but the option you wanted is only available if you know the right runes to enter on the command line. A select few (kodi, xine etc.) will let you pick how much they should hide from you, so you can start with the footgun cabinet firmly locked, but unlock it and select the correct one when necessary.

 

[wemist01]

How about uploading 10 seconds of each file where you hear an obvious difference and let forum members examine the files?

This might address the question of whether something went wrong in the FLAC encoding. But what it it really is an issue with the playback equipment?

 

[wemist01]

"Connect your MAC or PC in one tap and stream your music to Chromecast or Airplay." This is from the Flacbox website, and the language is odd. Is Flacbox connecting directly from your phone to the speakers, or does your computer play a part in the chain?

 

[sangbro]

I think both can be converted back to .wav, right? Maybe do that and see if they end up sounding the same.

I will do converting once I get home.

 

[sangbro]

"Connect your MAC or PC in one tap and stream your music to Chromecast or Airplay." This is from the Flacbox website, and the language is odd. Is Flacbox connecting directly from your phone to the speakers, or does your computer play a part in the chain?

I have Flacbox app in my iPhone, and I play the songs via Airplay 2. B&W Formation Duo only accepts wireless input.

Maybe this is device specific problem/limitation. Or when I rip the CD with XLD, there was something wrong.

Or as I described an example above (my trouble shooting regarding popping noise), I think this might have something to do with my network.
- As I mentioned in the example, I have not still seen any trouble shooting guide such as “if there is another device using video streaming, then your wirelessly connected music’s quality might suffer”.

 

[Zensō]

I see. Still, when I manually match the volume when I play the song, I should be able to remove difference. Isn’t it?

Manually matching volume is not enough. You need to match the volume to within 0.1 db.

 

[Berwhale]

(I use Orbi routers right next to speaker.)

Are the Orbi's connected over wi-fi or Ethernet backhaul? If you're creating your mesh wirelessly, then you loose quite a bit of bandwith for your devices. I don't know the specifics of the Orbi setup, but typically the 5Ghz band might be used to connect the mesh nodes, which only leaves the 2.4Ghz bands for device connections. I use an Asus AiMesh network and all my access points are wired for this reason - I do appreciate that not everyone is prepared to flood wire their house with CAT5e (it was a while ago!).