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Why Did Loudness Buttons Go Away?

watchnerd

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It's 10:30 pm at night and I don't want to listen to headphones, even though everyone else is in bed.

So I keep it real soft, -28.5dB on my amp....and wishing I had a 'Loudness' button to flesh out the bottom and top that I'm missing when listening softly.

Why did we get rid of Loudness buttons?

And, equally importantly, if I wanted to emulate in EQ/PEQ, what would I do?
 

solderdude

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Yes, it does work when the characteristics are close enough to the actual SPL it is supposed to work at.
To get it to work exactly as intended one should have to match its 'correction' based on SPL not on any volpot setting when it is not known what actual SPL that volpot setting recommends.

The frequency curve as well as the amplification should change depending on SPL which is hard to do when using fixed filters.

The problem with the loudness control is that it should not be coupled to volpot position (it always is).
It could be coupled to volume pot position when speakers (or headphones) used all have a very similar efficiency.
It becomes even more problematic when a device has it and then the signal is routed through an amplifier which changes the 'optimal operating point'. Not to mention average levels on recordings can differ as well.
When several 'volume controls' are being used in the audio path (for instance active speakers, windows or pre-amp vol controls) the loudness may be operating incorrectly on the actual SPL

Some devices still have loudness functionality (ADI-2 for instance)
 

Daverz

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The BrutefirDRC plugin for the squeezebox ecosystem has a loudness mode that uses replay gain to set the loudness level.

LMS_-_Player-Transporter-BruteFIR_FLAC.png
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OP
watchnerd

watchnerd

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Yes, it does work when the characteristics are close enough to the actual SPL it is supposed to work at.
To get it to work exactly as intended one should have to match its 'correction' based on SPL not on any volpot setting when it is not known what actual SPL that volpot setting recommends.

The frequency curve as well as the amplification should change depending on SPL which is hard to do when using fixed filters.

The problem with the loudness control is that it should not be coupled to volpot position (it always is).
It could be coupled to volume pot position when speakers (or headphones) used all have a very similar efficiency.
It becomes even more problematic when a device has it and then the signal is routed through an amplifier which changes the 'optimal operating point'. Not to mention average levels on recordings can differ as well.
When several 'volume controls' are being used in the audio path (for instance active speakers, windows or pre-amp vol controls) the loudness may be operating incorrectly on the actual SPL

Some devices still have loudness functionality (ADI-2 for instance)

Unfortunately, my ADI-2 Pro is in my office and I was listening to LP.
 

Blumlein 88

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The Tact RoomEQ gear after the 1st gen included volume specific correction for loudness. It worked great. You even could custom alter the response changes with volume. Haven't seen anything matching that automatically.

The reason they went away is usually they weren't right except for one volume and wrong for all others.
 

restorer-john

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The reason they went away is usually they weren't right except for one volume and wrong for all others.

In my opinion, they went away due to the pressure from reviewers. Around the time tone bypass/line direct buttons really kicked in. Having a loudness button was seen as not HiFi enough for the audiophiles.

I have absolutely no problem with loudness contours- when bypassed, they are out of the circuit and if they work for you that's great.

The problem with the loudness control is that it should not be coupled to volpot position (it always is).

Not all loudness contours are coupled to a 50% loudness tap, but they all should be. You can have >15dB boost on many, and at high volume positions (where it's not needed anyway) that would spell blown woofers. The few manufacturers that implemented "bass" or "low level" contours that were independent of volume pot rotation used considerably milder boost to prevent over driving at high volumes.

Sansui and others interlocked the loudness and tone controls so only the tone or the loudness could be used together. Most others were not so clever.
 

Hugo9000

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Audyssey has "Dynamic EQ," which is supposed to adapt to the volume, and I think you can customize the response based on preferred levels. My Denon receiver predates the availability of that feature by a few years, so I've never tried it out and can't report how effective it might be.
 

Juhazi

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I loved my '80s CR-820 Yamaha receiver with bass, mid and treble controls, and variable loudness! Most on-off Loudness have too high bass boost. The Yammy served me almost 20 years until controls were too oxidized and I threw it to recycle bin. Tuner didn't have presets, but the flywheel worked marvellously well, FM stations were listened daily.
yamaha-cr-820-left.jpg
 
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Willem

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Many modern Yamaha amplifiers still have a variable loudness control, and this is indeed a good idea.
My RME ADI-2 also has adjustable and dynamic loudness control. I can set the minimum and maximum levels and the effective frequencies. Since my room is large and my speakers are inefficient, I have set it quite aggressively, with excellent results.
 

BDWoody

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I loved my '80s CR-820 Yamaha receiver with bass, mid and treble controls, and variable loudness! Most on-off Loudness have too high bass boost. The Yammy served me almost 20 years until controls were too oxidized and I threw it to recycle bin. Tuner didn't have presets, but the flywheel worked marvellously well, FM stations were listened daily.
yamaha-cr-820-left.jpg

My old Nakamichi has a variable contour knob... I actually use it quite often.
0904190612.jpg

Plus, it's sexy as hell...
 

BDWoody

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soundwave76

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^ It does. Buy it and be happy with it for a looooong time.
 

anmpr1

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Why did we get rid of Loudness buttons?
I never used loudness. My then and now Yamaha gear had an unusual loudness control that was 'calibrated' to volume, somehow. I never worked with it, but it seemed kind of innovative.

Your point is well taken. In fact, a lot of functional preamplifier options are missing on gear, today. What about balance controls? And at least some rudimentary tone controls. What about a subsonic filter? Even integrated amps that are supposed to be geared toward the 'vinyl revival' (which as near as I can tell just means that they have a phono input) lack that. But you really need it if records are a part of your life.

I've got a pro rack mount style dbx 15 band dual channel equalizer in my basement somewhere. I think I will pull it out and hook it up to my Benchmark HGC so I can get balance and some tone control. I really don't want to do that--add another signal path between the DAC and amp, but I'm going to hook it up just to check it out.

I guess a lot could be done in software if you are using a PC as a source.
 

Willem

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Yes a program like Equalizer APO allows you to do a lot of it, but only with the PC as as a source. I am more than pleased with my ADI-2. I needed the balance control, the parametric filters, the tone control and the dynamic loudness. It is a very powerful tool with all the traditional options, and more, but it does take a bit of effort to master it all.
 

FrantzM

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The Tact RoomEQ gear after the 1st gen included volume specific correction for loudness. It worked great. You even could custom alter the response changes with volume. Haven't seen anything matching that automatically.

The reason they went away is usually they weren't right except for one volume and wrong for all others.
In my opinion, they went away due to the pressure from reviewers. Around the time tone bypass/line direct buttons really kicked in. Having a loudness button was seen as not HiFi enough for the audiophiles.

I have absolutely no problem with loudness contours- when bypassed, they are out of the circuit and if they work for you that's great.



Not all loudness contours are coupled to a 50% loudness tap, but they all should be. You can have >15dB boost on many, and at high volume positions (where it's not needed anyway) that would spell blown woofers. The few manufacturers that implemented "bass" or "low level" contours that were independent of volume pot rotation used considerably milder boost to prevent over driving at high volumes.

Sansui and others interlocked the loudness and tone controls so only the tone or the loudness could be used together. Most others were not so clever.


Audyssey is a step in the right direction but it is still a Volume pot controlled solution. In these days and ages, it is possible to implement a correct, configurable Loudness control. . More than doable, have a mike always plugged in, evaluating the SPL in question and adjusting the EQ according to Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves and perform the necessary corrections.... Bang & Olufsen (the brand so derided by audiophiles but whose speakers will mop the floor with many audiophiels darlings) seem to have such a solution...

Asking permission to rant and digress a bit? Ok? Granted? Thanks :) Let me begin.

Someone has posted that one of the rasons that these buttons went away was that they weren't "audiophile enough" , I agree. The entire hobby was/is awashed with an ersatz of "purist" mentality . It is easy to point its contradictions, it has nonetheless develop a philosophy wrapped around the notion that things must be analog and the signal untouched by the deleterious manipulations and calculations of the "mechanical" (!!) digital . Tone controls on a system are perceived as inferior .. better use cables, components "synergy" to modify the sound, or better limited bandwidth components such as full range drivers and SET to deliver pure unadulterated sound (such a "dream" system would be an idler pulley turntable a SET DHT amplifier of 4 watts or less driving a pair of "full range" drivers that can't play a sound at frequencies under 150 Hz or above 10 KHz .. :( ) or cables with mystical powers or ... Science be damned !!

Back to the scheduled discussion.
 
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