Why can I hear a difference between 32bit 384khz and 24bit 44.1khz?

[simplywyn]

Been watching Amir's videos and really trying to tone out the snake oil out of my speakers. However, I have a Topping D10 DAC where I sent the sound quality to 32bit 384khz and I swear I can hear a difference compared to 24bit 441khz.

I've tried with double blind (my wife literally toggling between the two) and I noticed with 32bit 384khz, the speakers tend to disappear, the sound gets wider and the instruments feel like they're actually there. With 24bit 44.1khz, the sound feels like it's coming out of the speakers, and soudstage is far smaller and the instruments feel artificial.

I've also noticed the bass sounds more deep with 32bit 384khz vs 24bit setting.

Can someone explain what's going on? I can't believe it makes a difference yet it really does. Mathemtically I shouldn't be able to detect an absolute difference at all since our hearing caps out at 20khz, and also why is the bass better since it's around <500hz

 

[MediumRare]

Use REW to measure the distortion, SPL, and FR and then come back with the graphs.

 

[SIY]

Use REW to measure the distortion, SPL, and FR and then come back with the graphs.

And level, electrically.

Details here from @simplywyn would be nice.

 

[simplywyn]

Use REW to measure the distortion, SPL, and FR and then come back with the graphs.

I don’t have any measuring devices but it’s oddly noticeable.

Even level setting, I’m guessing the 32bit creates a bit more volume? Or does it reduce the noise?

Finding it hard to believe that it makes a difference

 

[Emlin]

Been watching Amir's videos and really trying to tone out the snake oil out of my speakers. However, I have a Topping D10 DAC where I sent the sound quality to 32bit 384khz and I swear I can hear a difference compared to 24bit 441khz.

I've tried with double blind (my wife literally toggling between the two) and I noticed with 32bit 384khz, the speakers tend to disappear, the sound gets wider and the instruments feel like they're actually there. With 24bit 44.1khz, the sound feels like it's coming out of the speakers, and soudstage is far smaller and the instruments feel artificial.

I've also noticed the bass sounds more deep with 32bit 384khz vs 24bit setting.

Can someone explain what's going on? I can't believe it makes a difference yet it really does. Mathemtically I shouldn't be able to detect an absolute difference at all since our hearing caps out at 20khz, and also why is the bass better since it's around <500hz

Do the comparison blind. Then any perceived difference will probably go away, and you'll be able to go back to enjoying the music.

 

[simplywyn]

Do the comparison blind. Then any perceived difference will probably go away, and you'll be able to go back to enjoying the music.

I'm pretty skeptical myself, but honestly I can hear a difference! Is it my brain playing that much tricks on me?

 

[JSmith]

but honestly I can hear a difference!

I always think it's wrong to tell someone they don't hear what they hear... there is always an explanation from the devices, implementation to psychoacoustic effects etc.

It will be interesting to see if yourself or anyone here can ascertain what is going on.

Have you considered sending same to @amirm for proper testing?



JSmith

 

[preload]

Been watching Amir's videos and really trying to tone out the snake oil out of my speakers. However, I have a Topping D10 DAC where I sent the sound quality to 32bit 384khz and I swear I can hear a difference compared to 24bit 441khz.

How are you "sending the sound quality" to 32/384 vs. 24/44.1. What exactly does that mean?

 

[curiouspeter]

If you find 32/384 better, just stick with it. You will be happier.

 

[JSmith]

How are you "sending the sound quality" to 32/384 vs. 24/44.1. What exactly does that mean?

One would assume it means upsampling prior to the DAC or feeding the DAC a 44.1Kz signal and having the DAC upsample... both of which will simply be zero stuffing during interpolation. In theory both should sound the same... unless the D10 is doing something poorly or the other device is stuffing up the upsampling process (hard to stuff that up though).



JSmith

 

[Χ Ξ Σ]

If both the 32bit/384khz and 24bit/44.1khz files were downloaded, then the digital masters were different. The record label did this so that you could hear the difference.

If you downsampled the 32bit/384khz to 24bit/44.1khz, then you shouldn't hear any difference.

 

[curiouspeter]

Beware, some 24/44.1 files may be MQA encoded. They can sound suboptimal if you play them as regular FLACs.

Qobuz has quite a few stealth MQA tracks that are simply marked as 24/44.1 "Hi Res"

 

[tifune]

Qobuz has quite a few stealth MQA tracks that are simply marked as 24/44.1 "Hi Res"

Can you highlight some examples?

 

[simplywyn]

I always think it's wrong to tell someone they don't hear what they hear... there is always an explanation from the devices, implementation to psychoacoustic effects etc.

It will be interesting to see if yourself or anyone here can ascertain what is going on.

Have you considered sending same to @amirm for proper testing?



JSmith

I just got my wife to change the input on me with my eyes closed, and here's the results:

Song 1 - mid tones violin etc
Guessing, can't tell a difference between low and high
Song 2 - bass heavy, got 100% right

Not enough data but interseting none the less

 

[tmtomh]

I always think it's wrong to tell someone they don't hear what they hear... there is always an explanation from the devices, implementation to psychoacoustic effects etc.

I agree with this. If someone approaches the discussion, as @simplywyn has here, with a basic understanding of and belief in measurements, then the spirit of ASR is that their experience should be treated as a question to be investigated rather than a claim to be doubted or disproven. That said, it seems like everyone in the thread is doing just that, trying to think of possible explanations.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Been watching Amir's videos and really trying to tone out the snake oil out of my speakers. However, I have a Topping D10 DAC where I sent the sound quality to 32bit 384khz and I swear I can hear a difference compared to 24bit 441khz.

I've tried with double blind (my wife literally toggling between the two) and I noticed with 32bit 384khz, the speakers tend to disappear, the sound gets wider and the instruments feel like they're actually there. With 24bit 44.1khz, the sound feels like it's coming out of the speakers, and soudstage is far smaller and the instruments feel artificial.

I've also noticed the bass sounds more deep with 32bit 384khz vs 24bit setting.

Can someone explain what's going on? I can't believe it makes a difference yet it really does. Mathemtically I shouldn't be able to detect an absolute difference at all since our hearing caps out at 20khz, and also why is the bass better since it's around <500hz

IME it is possible to get audible differences between files due both to the way the DAC handles the data it receives and also by there being a difference between the mastering of the files on offer.

It would seem to be good marketing practice for a vendor to make sure the file which costs more to be of a better sounding master, even if it is only 0.3dB louder, if clients are able to compare them themselves before purchase.

Each DAC will have its own way of dealing with an incoming file before it converts it, to suit the technology of chipset used if nothing else. That means different sample rate files will go through different manipulation pre-conversion and maybe some DACs are not transparent in the manipulation or use a different reconstruction filter for different sample rates.
I have certainly experiences sound change due to an early downsampling software converting a file to 16/44.1 from 16/48, for example and some reconstruction filters are audibly different to a classic one.

In my own evaluation of the audibility of "higher" res I used a good re-sampler to convert a 24/96 file to 16/44.1 then back again to 24/96. This meant that the DAC manipulated both files the same way, since it saw the same type of file but the second file had any of the data above 22.05kHz and lower than 16-bit (if there was any) removed. So I was certainly only listening for difference due to loss of data rather than other artefacts.
When I did that I could not hear any difference between the files.
FWIW
I did the Dr Aix on line investigation too, and couldn't hear any difference there either.

 

[voodooless]

I just got my wife to change the input on me with my eyes closed, and here's the results

You still haven't told us what your sources are and what software you are using?

 

[simplywyn]

You still haven't told us what your sources are and what software you are using?

I'm using foobar2000, sources is a FLAC file at 16bit and 44.1khz

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, and as I have written before I've made it that I am as skeptical as you, but I do hear a difference which is kinda confusing me.

At 384khz, the bass is definitely deeper and clearer, as I got 100% of it correctly

 

[voodooless]

What are you using to upsample (I'm guessing foobar as well)? Try other upsampling settings: 24 or 32 bit 48 kHz. At least then you'll always upsample, but stay close to the 44.1. If there are any volume differences due to upsampling, this should remove them. It would not surprise me if the resampler lowers the volume a bit to prevent clipping from its filters.

 

[curiouspeter]

Can you highlight some examples?

This is one:

But you can check out other releases from 2L