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Why bass management makes my life tedious

Soundmixer

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I guess the technical wizards at Disney think that the only people with Atmos capable systems have 50" flat panel displays (Dolby vision/ HDR10 capable).... Not very cinematic if you ask me

I am pretty sure no streaming service knows what size panel or projector screen size, or whether it is a panel or projector streaming their content to consumers.
 

Bartl007

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I am pretty sure no streaming service knows what size panel or projector screen size, or whether it is a panel or projector streaming their content to consumers.
I'm sorry for not being clear, my point was that every other streaming service (other than Disney plus) has figured out how to pass object audio (Atmos) content via HDMI WITHOUT requiring a display that supports high dynamic range (HDR 10/Dolby Vision).

From Nvidia shield customer support:
"ATMOS is only streamed with 4k content.
DIsney+ does not support 4k SDR content today, they only support 4k HDR/DV streams. This means you will only get 4k and you will only get ATMOS if you have a 4k HDR/DV display today"

For all intents and purposes, this means anyone with a projection based (non HDR) home entertainment system cannot receive Atmos audio via Disney plus
 

Soundmixer

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I'm sorry for not being clear, my point was that every other streaming service (other than Disney plus) has figured out how to pass object audio (Atmos) content via HDMI WITHOUT requiring a display that supports high dynamic range (HDR 10/Dolby Vision).


I don't think you understand what Disney is actually doing. They know how to pass Atmos without requiring HDR or DV support, the technical tools are there. They are "packaging" Atmos with HDR and DV as a marketing tool, it is not a technical limitation. If everyone else knows how to do it, Disney does as well.

DIsney+ does not support 4k SDR content today, they only support 4k HDR/DV streams. This means you will only get 4k and you will only get ATMOS if you have a 4k HDR/DV display today"

This is purposeful by Disney, not a limation Disney has with their app.
 

Soundmixer

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So that would also be true of my plasma TV then. But how does the streaming service know what TV I have? Everything goes through the AVR.

They can ping your display through the AVR via HDMI and find out. Your streaming device does the same thing when you set it up.
 
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audio2920

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They are "packaging" Atmos with HDR and DV as a marketing tool, it is not a technical limitation.

I'm not sure I follow. I get that it would be relatively easy to put Atmos on almost any video if they wanted to.

But Disney+ doesn't have a higher subscription tier for HDR/4K, right? How does it benefit their marketing strategy to reserve Atmos for those viewers?

I've never managed to get Atmos out of Disney+ either; never looked in to it but as my display isn't HDR/DV it seems likely this is why.
 

Soundmixer

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I'm not sure I follow. I get that it would be relatively easy to put Atmos on almost any video if they wanted to.

Correct. The last four words are critical.

But Disney+ doesn't have a higher subscription tier for HDR/4K, right? How does it benefit their marketing strategy to reserve Atmos for those viewers?

They have programming in SD and 4K/HDR. The programming in SD does not have access to the Atmos stream, but if available in 4K/HDR the access is granted. This takes me to the answer to the last part.

I've never managed to get Atmos out of Disney+ either; never looked in to it but as my display isn't HDR/DV it seems likely this is why.


If you wanted Atmos on Disney+, you would have to purchase a new set or get a streamer that supports it. Disney has been known in past years for using its content to help CE manufacturers sell more products. Their strong support of Bluray disc help Sony sell a lot of PS3 in the beginning.
 
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audio2920

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Disney has been known in past years for using its content to help CE manufacturers sell more products. Their strong support of Bluray disc help Sony sell a lot of PS3 in the beginning.

Interesting, I'd not thought of that angle. I wonder then, if they monetise that leverage somehow.
 

Chromatischism

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Here is an actual testimonial of a comparison of a home mix to the theater.

Screenshot_20211210-002919.png
 

markus

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Here is an actual testimonial of a comparison of a home mix to the theater.

View attachment 171442
That quote is wrong on so many levels. Short version: compare the actual recordings of home and cinema mix, i.e. the sound that's going into the speakers not the sound coming out of them.
 

Soundmixer

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That quote is wrong on so many levels. Short version: compare the actual recordings of home and cinema mix, i.e. the sound that's going into the speakers not the sound coming out of them.
Here is an actual testimonial of a comparison of a home mix to the theater.

View attachment 171442
My question is how does the processor know how much bass was reduced without using the theatrical mix as a comparison? How do they know were rolled off the bass occurred within the theatrical to home chain....... it could have very well been done on the dubbing stage because sound mixers know theatrical subwoofers would never be able to reproduce those frequencies. As an audio engineer who adapts, masters, and encodes mixes for the consumer environment, I have never filtered out any ULF bass.

This "process" is nothing more than a subharmonic bass booster.

Joe's explanation has some truths, but more marketing BS than truth. The absolutely laughable part of the push of this technology is using two different War of the World mixes from two different formats. They compared the DTS mix on the DVD format to the Atmos mix on the UHD disc. They did not compare the theatrical mix to either one of these two mixes, so they don't actually know which is right.
 
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markus

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My question is how does the processor know how much bass was reduced without using the theatrical mix as a comparison? How do they who rolled off the bass, it could have very well been done on the dubbing stage because sound mixers know theatrical subwoofers would never be able to reproduce those frequencies.

The "process" is nothing more than a subharmonic bass booster.
Yep and the person that "invented" BEQ already backpedaled, stating the process is not about bringing back something that got lost somewhere but about "more enjoyment". People like "more bass", so why not. It's just not the same as "faithful reproduction". On the other hand the industry doesn't make it easy for the consumer to achieve "faithful reproduction". So back to preference we are.
 

krabapple

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The industry *could* just provide faithful reproduction (to the extent possible) and then advise the user to adjust the bass to preference. What a concept.
 

markus

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The industry *could* just provide faithful reproduction (to the extent possible) and then advise the user to adjust the bass to preference. What a concept.
You mean like in defining and adhering to meaningful standards? What a stupid idea! Let's do home theater remixes, somewhere, somehow.
 

Soundmixer

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On the other hand the industry doesn't make it easy for the consumer to achieve "faithful reproduction". So back to preference we are.
Can you elaborate on this comment? What is "faithful reproduction"? The industry(or at least some studios) provides an optimized soundtrack for consumers' home theaters, and the industry has also defined a foundation of how to play these soundtracks in the home.

This software is not designed for faithful reproduction. As you have accurately stated, it is designed for pleasure and is therefore out of the control of the industry.
 
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aron7awol

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Yep and the person that "invented" BEQ already backpedaled, stating the process is not about bringing back something that got lost somewhere but about "more enjoyment". People like "more bass", so why not. It's just not the same as "faithful reproduction". On the other hand the industry doesn't make it easy for the consumer to achieve "faithful reproduction". So back to preference we are.
Backpedaled? I corrected someone who had stated it was "restoring" the signal, saying that I wished people would stop using the word "restore". I can't control what other people try to claim the purpose of BEQ is, but correcting those who claim it is a restoration is certainly not at all backpedaling.

from https://www.avsforum.com/threads/th...ith-htp-1-owners-thread.3112176/post-60955027
I think it was just an honest mistake in this case by @rcohen but I do wish people would stop using the word "restore" in the context of BEQ, as it may suggest that it is intended to bring the bass up to some "previous state" in which it existed at some point. I've never tried to claim anything like this, and have always said it is just a preference thing with a goal of maximizing the experience, "mixer's intent" be damned. Looking at the FR shape of many sound effects in the mixes, they do often appear to have been filtered to some extent, but of course I can't know exactly how, and so even trying to pretend that I am restoring these effects to an unfiltered state would be silly. Instead, my intent is to boost them to a "better" state, of course just in my own personal opinion, as far as how my experience is on my very capable system.
 

Chromatischism

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Maybe the misunderstanding comes from the BEQ thread itself: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/bass-eq-for-filtered-movies.2995212/

General Information


Bass EQ
or BEQ has been talked about on Data Bass forums... since ~2014
for Restoring some Bluray/4K UHD movies that have had their lower frequencies severely filtered.

The ULF content is still there on the disc for the taking,
and with the right software the ULF/LFE levels can be restored.

This is not made up content, noise or filler, it's real low frequency material that "some" sound engineers decided no one needed to hear/feel. So the lowest frequencies output levels were just reduced to soundbar levels, But are still ripe for the picking with the right software.
 
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