Why Audiophiles Are Shopping for Vintage Turntables

[mhardy6647]

Looks like a Technics SA-300 or 400... maybe SA-500?

Nope, not an SA-500

DSC_9402 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

 

[Robin L]

I just find it strange when people can't understand that others have different criteria goals and experiences, which makes sense of their choices.

Right. My goal, my assumption, is that sound technology would move forward, with an improvement of sound quality that would be accessible to all. As far as I can tell, the LP revival is a reversion to a lower standard of sound quality on a costlier format because it appears to be a status symbol. Meanwhile, a higher standard of sound quality on a less expensive format is available. So, sorry if it seems like I'm being a killjoy, but the LP revival makes no sense to me.

 

[levimax]

Right. My goal, my assumption, is that sound technology would move forward, with an improvement of sound quality that would be accessible to all. As far as I can tell, the LP revival is a reversion to a lower standard of sound quality on a costlier format because it appears to be a status symbol. Meanwhile, a higher standard of sound quality on a less expensive format is available. So, sorry if it seems like I'm being a killjoy, but the LP revival makes no sense to me.

If cheap (free even) good sound quality music accessible to all is the ultimate goal then digital streaming has realized this goal. If being entertained and having fun is the ultimate goal then there is room for different recorded music experiences with LP's being one of them.

 

[wje]

That's why the majority of vinyl lovers hang on to their turntables, it takes them back to their younger days where they frequented record shops and bought home the latest new release for a spin. And they can also own those turntables now that they lusted over at that time. Of course they don't sound as good as a good quality Cd or digital file, but it's not just about the music. It's the same reason someone wants a restored E-Type jag when a new sports car can outperform it in every way.

That was me for about 5 days last month, I reminisced on having grown in my teens with applying my money made for mowing lawns, and records to add to my collection. Though, last month, over that 5 day period, I bought 2 turntables, about 8 albums and enjoyed the music - for a bit. It was good to be taken back, but having to flip the album every 20 minutes or so made me realize how good I have things today by calling up play lists, stations and artists digitally. Having had enough fun and memories, I returned one of the un-opened turntable, sold the other and cancelled my plans to purchase $100 per month in vinyl to add to my collection. It was a good experience.

 

[Robin L]

That was me for about 5 days last month, I reminisced on having grown in my teens with applying my money made for mowing lawns, and records to add to my collection. Though, last month, over that 5 day period, I bought 2 turntables, about 8 albums and enjoyed the music - for a bit. It was good to be taken back, but having to flip the album every 20 minutes or so made me realize how good I have things today by calling up play lists, stations and artists digitally. Having had enough fun and memories, I returned one of the un-opened turntable, sold the other and cancelled my plans to purchase $100 per month in vinyl to add to my collection. It was a good experience.

1972, got my first "real" stereo. Acoustic Research XA turntable, Acoustic Research model 3 speakers, Acoustic Research integrated amp, Shure M91e cartridge. Lasted for a year before one of the speakers fell off the flimsy wall bracket, narrowly missing my brother's head in the bedroom we shared and destroying the tweeter as well, eliminating the stereo effect. That was probably my high-water mark with audio gear. If I could have calmed down and be satisfied with that damned good system instead of [hopefully] finding the spot for them where the bass could really shine, I wouldn't have shoveled so much money, time, and energy into "upgrading" my system. But even then, some of my LPs were library rejects, worn all to hell. I had a very open sonic window to an audio shitstorm on those scratched and maimed Angel and RCA Victor audiophile classics. I very quickly realized that there was a very wide range of sound quality. Around that time, I was buying a lot of classical LPs, so already I was hearing the wide spread in quality from the perfect surfaces of the Netherlands pressings of Philips LPs to those RCA "Dynawarp" LPs, particularly their reissues of Toscanini broadcasts, already dire to start with, off-center pressings of off-center 78's.

Right now, I'm putting a lot more energy into playing music, showing up at open mics, taking in the good, the bad and the atonal, along with providing same. There's your ritual, community, shared experience, sometimes audiophile and sometimes screeching feedback sonic experience.

But in "real time".

 

[MattHooper]

but the Harley I used to keep in the living room didn't equal clutter to me,

A Harley rider! That explains some things.

Also: why in the world would anyone ride an outmoded vehicle like a motorcycle, much less a Harley, when transportation has advanced to where you can ride in a fully covered vehicle, in greater safety, and without breaking everyone's eardrums as you ride by?

 

[Robin L]

A Harley rider! That explains some things.

Also: why in the world would anyone ride an outmoded vehicle like a motorcycle, much less a Harley, when transportation has advanced to where you can ride in a fully covered vehicle, in greater safety, and without breaking everyone's eardrums as you ride by?

Good question.

 

[wje]

A Harley rider! That explains some things.

Also: why in the world would anyone ride an outmoded vehicle like a motorcycle, much less a Harley, when transportation has advanced to where you can ride in a fully covered vehicle, in greater safety, and without breaking everyone's eardrums as you ride by?

I didn't give up all my bad habits. Still a Harley rider. Though, I'm content with the stock exhaust and don't need anything like the Vance and Hines of the past as I want to save my ears for music. In fact, heading out in a bit on the 2019 Fat Boy with the 114 c.i.

 

[JDragon]

Same ole, same ole BS repeated by people who fell for the Stereophile/TAS/etc line that vinyl sounds better, along with the current fad that playing vinyl makes you KOOL. In reality it's not justifiable in terms of SQ, convenience, or at the top of the list-cost/value. Like pet rocks and bell bottom jeans it will soon fade into history.
If you want an immersive listening experience you won't get it from jumping up and down to clean a record and turn it over. Get a multich rig and enjoy true immersive music.

What’s really BS is telling someone how they enjoy music isn’t the “right” way to enjoy music. Grow up.

 

[JDragon]

Sorry vinyl fans... as far as I'm concerned, that's fantastic news.

Seems awfully vindictive and petty to describe peoples' livelihoods going up in smoke as "fantastic news" because you don't like vinyl.

 

[Wes]

What’s really BS is telling someone how they enjoy music isn’t the “right” way to enjoy music. Grow up.

He didn't say that. What he did say is correct (with some exceptions which I posted above).

But if you like your vinyl you can keep your vinyl.

 

[JDragon]

He didn't say that. What he did say is correct (with some exceptions which I posted above).

But if you like your vinyl you can keep your vinyl.

If you want an immersive listening experience you won't get it from jumping up and down to clean a record and turn it over.

Remember, the point isn't whether YOU agree with the above or have the same experience listenig to music. The point is that there ARE PEOPLE for whom vinyl changes their listening experience in a desirable way. And it's hardly limited to lil' old me

Same ole, same ole BS repeated by people who fell for the Stereophile/TAS/etc line that vinyl sounds better, along with the current fad that playing vinyl makes you KOOL

 

[Robin L]

Seems awfully vindictive and petty to describe peoples' livelihoods going up in smoke as "fantastic news" because you don't like vinyl.

No, it's not good news that people's livelihoods are gone. This news underscores how limited in scope the much ballyhooed "vinyl revival" really is. If the destruction of a single production facility is all that it takes to destroy this "revival", perhaps its scale is being grossly overhyped.

 

[JDragon]

No, it's not good news that people's livelihoods are gone. This news underscores how limited in scope the much ballyhooed "vinyl revival" really is. If the destruction of a single production facility is all that it takes to destroy this "revival", perhaps its scale is being grossly overhyped.

lol there's more spin on that statement than a turntable.

If all you want to do is prove the scale, or lack thereof, regarding some "vinyl revival" all you need to do is turn to the data: https://www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/

Trying to characterize the "fantastic news" comment as anything but childish is ridiculous.

 

[MattHooper]

Trying to characterize the "fantastic news" comment as anything but childish is ridiculous.

That's for sure.

The level of self-centeredness required to make a comment like that was really something.

 

[xr100]

Seems awfully vindictive and petty to describe peoples' livelihoods going up in smoke as "fantastic news" because you don't like vinyl.

Absolutely not, the impact on life situations is NOT "fantastic news." The smiley face at the end means that it is a joke, but I can see how it could come across as unthinking, so I offer my full apologies.

Trying to characterize the "fantastic news" comment as anything but childish is ridiculous.

Indeed, very childish.

Having explained digital audio (and the fact that the signal has, for decades, in most cases passed through a digital delay line anyway en route to cutting, even ignoring the rest of the recording/processing chain) to certain of its enthusiasts to no avail whatsoever, for that reason alone, patience wears thin.

Vinyl is so technically poor that I am stupefied as to why it has made a "comeback" to the extent that it has.

(Obviously, the best "implementations" of vinyl-related technology, from cutting lathes to cartridges, do deserve respect as marvellous pieces of engineering given the constraints.)

As a method of adding "colouration" to an existent recording, which may have some psychoacoustic basis and/or suit personal preference, it is an incorrect approach, for one would wish to control the desired effects without undesirable artifacts, and one would want to tailor any such effects to the material. (For example, the material may already be "coloured," so it would not be sensible to add more distortion.)

In the end, all vinyl delivers, beyond the human interface and tactile aspects, is a highly corrupt version of the original signal. Keeping in mind the source when cutting vinyl is almost certainly linear PCM being fed to a D/A converter, anyway.

Please, consider all the digital processes (plug-ins) used in production that purport to replicate the colouration of old analogue gear. For instance:

"UAD Powered Plug-Ins have been winning over audio professionals for more than 15 years with their stunning analog sound."

(Source: https://www.uaudio.com/uad-plugins.html)

Combined with various irritational aspects of "high-end audio reproduction," I'm afraid that anyone who believes in a strict engineering approach to the highest quality of sound is swimming against strong tides. It makes a change to be able to say "LOL vinyl plant blew up" instead of being very frustrated. Whilst this may be a highly unfavourable event for those who wish to collect vinyl, I hope that my reaction might at least be understood.

Incidentally, I may have been overexcited, for this situation does not mean that large quantities of vinyl will not continue to be pressed.

 

[MattHooper]

Absolutely not, the impact on life situations is NOT "fantastic news." The smiley face at the end means that it is a joke, and I apologise if you found it offensive.

Understood. Apology accepted! (Even if not aimed at me...and I don't get offended anyway).

" vinyl is so technically poor that it does not deserve any respect*, and other than the "merch" aspect, I am stupefied that it has made a "comeback" to the extent that it has.

Yup. If you approach trying to understand the appeal of vinyl from a very, very narrow viewpoint built around your personal criteria, you won't understand it.

By analogy: Until recently we had a long-standing Drive-In movie theater near our downtown that was usually packed. I took my kids there often through the years, and would even go myself and with friends.

The average videophile could say "Drive in movie picture and sound quality is so technically poor it does not deserve any respect." Sure, from a certain criteria. But, then, that would be to totally miss the various aspects of the whole experience, and hence the value it held for those *seeking that experience.*. And it would be self-centred and blinkered for the videophile to think "therefore Drive In Movie Theaters need to go away!" just because that videophile himself doesn't find value in them.

(I frankly loathe motorcycles. As someone with sensitive ears bikes like Harleys are the bane of my existence once spring arrives. But I'm not going to conclude motorcycles have no reason to exist. Especially because I can come up with ways other modes of transport are "technically superior" in various ways. They exist because they fill the needs and desires of other people).

(* The best "implementations" from cutting lathes to cartridges do as marvellous pieces of engineering given the constraints.)

As a method of adding "colouration" to an existent recording, which may have some psychoacoustic basis and/or suit personal preference, it is poor, for one would wish to control the desired effects without undesirable artifacts, and one would want to tailor any such effects to the material. (For example, the material may already be "coloured," so it would not be sensible to add more distortion.)

In the end, all vinyl delivers, beyond the human interface and tactile aspects, is a highly corrupt version of the original signal. Keeping in mind the source when cutting vinyl is almost certainly linear PCM being fed to a D/A converter, anyway.

Incidentally, I may have been overexcited, for this situation does not mean that large quantities of vinyl will not continue to be pressed.

Meh.

I work in digital audio all day long.

After I'm finished I go to my hi-fi to listen to music and I switch between my digital source (CD quality to benchmark DAC) and my "high end" turntable all the time. Does vinyl tend to sound as bad as your post implies? Nah. I can get fantastic sound from both. (And when I can compare good vinyl pressings to the digital versions from the same masters, it doesn't sound "highly corrupt," they sound amazingly similar).

For me the recording/production/mastering quality far outweigh the difference between each delivery system, in terms of the sound quality I experience.

But if you don't want to listen to vinyl, no jack-booted troops will be breaking your door down to force you to listen to it.

 

[JDragon]

Absolutely not, the impact on life situations is NOT "fantastic news." The smiley face at the end means that it is a joke, but I can see how it could come across as unthinking, so I offer my full apologies.



Indeed, very childish

Having explained digital audio (and the fact that the signal, for decades, went through a digital delay line anyway en route to cutting, even ignoring the rest of the recording/processing chain) to certain of its enthusiasts to no avail whatsoever, for that reason alone, patience wears thin.

Vinyl is so technically poor that I am stupefied as to why it has made a "comeback" to the extent that it has.

(Obviously, the best "implementations" of vinyl-related technology, from cutting lathes to cartridges, do deserve respect as marvellous pieces of engineering given the constraints.)

As a method of adding "colouration" to an existent recording, which may have some psychoacoustic basis and/or suit personal preference, it is an incorrect approach, for one would wish to control the desired effects without undesirable artifacts, and one would want to tailor any such effects to the material. (For example, the material may already be "coloured," so it would not be sensible to add more distortion.)

In the end, all vinyl delivers, beyond the human interface and tactile aspects, is a highly corrupt version of the original signal. Keeping in mind the source when cutting vinyl is almost certainly linear PCM being fed to a D/A converter, anyway.

Please, consider all the digital processes (plug-ins) used in production that purport to replicate the colouration of old analogue gear. For instance:

"UAD Powered Plug-Ins have been winning over audio professionals for more than 15 years with their stunning analog sound."

(Source: https://www.uaudio.com/uad-plugins.html)

Combined with various irritational aspects of "high-end audio reproduction," I'm afraid that anyone who believes in a strict engineering approach to the highest quality of sound is swimming against strong tides. It makes a change to be able to say "LOL vinyl plant blew up" instead of being very frustrated. Whilst this may be a highly unfavourable event for those who wish to collect vinyl, I hope that my reaction might at least be understood.

Incidentally, I may have been overexcited, for this situation does not mean that large quantities of vinyl will not continue to be pressed.

lol there's more spin on that statement than a turntable.

I can re-use this one. Ha ha, funny joke.

Incidentally, I may have been overexcited, for this situation does not mean that large quantities of vinyl will not continue to be pressed.

This is the only relevant part of your entire spiel. Your reaction was to celebrate that it would be more difficult for people to enjoy music in their preferred methodology?

I don't like wine and I find many enthusiasts pretentious. I don't call it "fantastic news" that a vineyard burns down.

I don't like the Toyota Prius and the many terrible drivers that choose it as their car. It's not "fantastic news" when I see one in an accident.

Incidentally, my main system is perhaps the polar opposite of the vinyl experience (digital streaming into active speakers w/ DSP + room correction). I view vinyl as an objectively inferior method of accurate music playback. And yet, I can sympathize with the vinyl fans that are devastated that the manufacturer is likely shutting down as a result of this. My enjoyment of my music is not somehow increased because people I disagree with on the Internet are having a tough time.

If your initial reaction to this type of thing was excitement, perhaps you should re-evaluate some of your perspectives on life.

 

[MattHooper]

And yet, I can sympathize with the vinyl fans that are devastated that the manufacturer is likely shutting down as a result of this.

Yeah, I'm one of those who is really bummed out about the possible devastating fall out from the fire. I buy lots of vinyl, much of it new.
I'm especially in to soundtracks and the companies putting out new and old soundtracks on vinyl are often doing a stellar job. The artwork and packaging are often really gorgeous and intricately conceived. Receiving a soundtrack in the mail as a physical object that feels great in the hand, nice to read and display is, for me a much more satisfying and compelling experience than flicking "buy" on my phone or streaming 1s and 0s.
I get to play it on my turntable which, in of itself, is a bitchin' cool device. And often they sound fantastic.

I played the recent re-release of the Bullit soundtrack for a musian pal and his mind was blown by the sound. He couldn't stop talking "why did that sound so amazing? The clarity. The 3 d imaging. And so punchy. I'm in the studio trying to get my stuff to sound good, how did they do that?" I played another record for my brother who has listened to every audio set up I've ever had and he felt it was the best sound he'd ever heard from any system I've owned. Does that mean the digital couldn't have been as good? Or a teeny bit better if one prefers digital? No. What it means is that vinyl can sound amazing. You get a good sounding disc and, digital or vinyl, it can sound super impressive. I find I'm often experiencing extremely satisfying sound quality from vinyl PLUS I'm getting personal value from the various aspects of the physical media/playback system that make the experience...for me...richer overall than playing things digitally. YMMV as with everything.

 

[Sal1950]

What’s really BS is telling someone how they enjoy music isn’t the “right” way to enjoy music. Grow up.

I never said any such thing.

Yup. If you approach trying to understand the appeal of vinyl from a very, very narrow viewpoint built around your personal criteria, you won't understand it.

Since when is the pursuit of High Fidelity a "a very, very narrow viewpoint built around your personal criteria"? High Fidelity was the raison d'etre for what we do here from the very beginning.
We've been down this road before, if you love the sound of your TT that's fine. But in this late 2020 date of technology, the LP was left behind 40+ years ago.