Why Audiophiles Are Shopping for Vintage Turntables

[RexrothPigeon]

Maybe it's because I'm not a 'near deaf man' but I can't hear all the noise, speed irregularities and other technical limitations of vinyl for perhaps 99% of my LPs. Yes, a few are noisy, and a few are completely silent (to my ears) but most have the occasional tick and pop somewhere on a side. This used to drive me nuts when LPs was all there was, but now, if I want silent, I use digital. If I want to play that particular LP, I can accept the occasional tick.

Doesn't the lack of dynamic range bother you?

"Vinyl has limited dynamic range, particularly when compared to digital recording methods. The practical dynamic range is normally somewhere between 20 and 40dB but some claim that it can be as high as 80dB but this is likely only under very specific circumstances as 80dB would take up a lot of room on the disc surface. By contrast, the dynamic range of a CD is 150dB without any special conditions needed."

 

[sergeauckland]

Doesn't the lack of dynamic range bother you?

"Vinyl has limited dynamic range, particularly when compared to digital recording methods. The practical dynamic range is normally somewhere between 20 and 40dB but some claim that it can be as high as 80dB but this is likely only under very specific circumstances as 80dB would take up a lot of room on the disc surface. By contrast, the dynamic range of a CD is 150dB without any special conditions needed."

There's more dynamic range on 50 year old LPs than modern digital...Anyway, CD with 150dB dynamic range...really?

S.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

There's more dynamic range on 50 year old LPs than modern digital

Zuh? This is patently false, and it's surprising if you really believe it to be true

(Or are you making a swipe at badly engineered loudness war pop albums? if so, idk idc, that's immaterial to the discussion of playback media)

 

[MattHooper]

Are you sure?

For decades, vintage recordings were mixed and mastered with the intent that they would be played on vinyl. Is there not something to be said for the original intent of the musicians and sound engineers who were driving towards that medium as their end product (limitations and all)?

I’ve mostly given up trying to converse with those who cannot see beyond their own taste/goals/criteria to understand the rationality of other people’s decisions.

My forehead is still healing from banging it on that wall.

 

[Sal1950]

There's more dynamic range on 50 year old LPs than modern digital...Anyway, CD with 150dB dynamic range...really?

S.

Don't know where you get your info, some rap, hippty hop, and Swifty type pop crap are victims of the loudnness war, but the stuff we're discussing crushes vinyl in DR and everywhere else for sound quality.
Beat this with snap, crackel and poop.

Artist	Yes
Album	Fragile (2015 Steven Wilson 5.1 96/24 PCM)
Year	2015
Album DR	14
Min. track DR	12
Max. track DR	17
Track DR	13 12 14 14 14 15 14 17 15
Codec	Lossless
Source	CD
Label	Panegyric
Catalog number	GYRBD50009
Bar code	633367900821
Country	USA
Link
Comment	This is the 5.1 LPCM file set of the Blu Ray, extracted to WAV using EAC3To.
Log file	foobar2000 1.3.9 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1 log date: 2017-02-23 18:51:41 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed: Yes / Fragile -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR13 -0.10 dB -19.71 dB 8:33 01-Roundabout DR12 -4.00 dB -25.31 dB 1:40 02-Cans And Brahms (Extracts From Brahms' 4Th Symphony In E Minor Third Movement) DR14 -0.10 dB -20.47 dB 1:42 03-We Have Heaven DR14 -0.43 dB -20.81 dB 8:02 04-South Side Of The Sky DR14 -0.10 dB -21.57 dB 0:35 05-Five Per Cent For Nothing DR15 -0.10 dB -20.91 dB 3:31 06-Long Distance Runaround DR14 -1.00 dB -19.23 dB 2:39 07-The Fish (Schindleria Praemeturus) DR17 -2.42 dB -23.46 dB 2:58 08-Mood For A Day DR15 -0.10 dB -20.27 dB 11:27 09-Heart Of The Sunrise -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of tracks: 9 Official DR value: DR14 Samplerate: 96000 Hz Channels: 6 Bits per sample: 24 Bitrate: 13824 kbps Codec: PCM ================================================================================
Algorithm	TT DR Offline Meter (or compatible)

 

[Sal1950]

I’ve mostly given up trying to converse with those who cannot see beyond their own taste/goals/criteria to understand the rationality of other people’s decisions.

My forehead is still healing from banging it on that wall.

Don't stop now Matt, maybe you'll finally wake up.

 

[sergeauckland]

Zuh? This is patently false, and it's surprising if you really believe it to be true

(Or are you making a swipe at badly engineered loudness war pop albums? if so, idk idc, that's immaterial to the discussion of playback media)

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. There are any number of CDs crushed to death, sadly not just chart pop, and especially 'remastered' CDs where the originals had decent DR, the remastered ones don't.

By the way, and I include Sal in this, please don't think that I prefer Vinyl to digital. I don't, and 90% of my listening is digital. It's just that with decent clean LPs , and modern stylus profiles, I find them more than acceptable, and certainly preferable to the CD if that's been mastered with next to zero DR.

S

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant. There are any number of CDs crushed to death, sadly not just chart pop, and especially 'remastered' CDs where the originals had decent DR, the remastered ones don't.

I have heard about this but I don't listen to any records that were mixed this way & it's very easy to never encounter it at all, even if you (like I do) listen to a ton of contemporary recordings.

 

[Dlr0657]

YES, I'm sure
Right, the pressing master was manipulated to all sort of alterations to the sound captured on the master tape to make it acceptable
for the weakness of the vinyl technology.

Mastering For Vinyl Records | Gotta Groove Records Gotta Groove Records

Tips for vinyl mastering - preparing digital masters for vinyl pressing.

www.gottagrooverecords.com

What is Mastering for Vinyl?

Mastering for vinyl is the process of creating a separate master that can be cut into a vinyl record without added unwanted distortion.

www.sageaudio.com

The Truth About Vinyl Records

The year is 1877 and Thomas Edison presents his “Phonograph” to the world. It wasn’t the only device able to reproduce recorded sound but it was the most reliable. The medium in this early machine was the “Brown Wax” cylinder, which was not actually composed of wax but made of a metal soap...

www.audiosciencereview.com

BUT, the sound the mic's heard, and the sound the artists/mixing engineer WANTED you to hear is on the original archived master.
Thankfully most going all the way back to the 40s still exist and can be transferred to digital form, letting us now hear a much cleaner, closer reproduction
of the original performances.

Yeah okay. That seems reasonable - that vinyl was a constrained outcome that was created after the mix and master, which were on tape.

Just to go a little deeper:

Is your assertion is that there were zero decisions made in the tracking process with the intent that those decisions would be suited to a vinyl output?

Or is your assertion that there were zero decisions made in the tracking process with the intent that those decisions would be suited to a vinyl output that cannot be enhanced by a much cleaner, closer reproduction of the original performances?

 

[Dlr0657]

I’ve mostly given up trying to converse with those who cannot see beyond their own taste/goals/criteria to understand the rationality of other people’s decisions.

My forehead is still healing from banging it on that wall.

Yeah I get it. You have 11,000 posts on this forum. I have 4.

You've had this conversation a hundred times before. I have not.

But if you recall, you too had this conversation for a first time, once upon a time.

Maybe, just maybe, I'm here for a sincere exchange of information?

 

[mhardy6647]

Yeah I get it. You have 11,000 posts on this forum. I have 4.

You've had this conversation a hundred times before. I have not.

But if you recall, you too had this conversation for a first time, once upon a time.

Maybe, just maybe, I'm here for a sincere exchange of information?

Very fair point, and something we grizzled, battered veterans can lose sight of.
This party was in full swing when you came in.
ahem... and not [edit] to sound as condescending as I probably will by typing this , but this place is a little bit different than the average hifi forum/discussion group. And primarily for that reason, I'd suggest that, if you haven't done so, it's not a bad idea to read the FAQs. Lots of useful stickies at the subforum at which those FAQs are located, too - just click here and look at the top dozen or so topics.

And lest you think we're all just a bunch of grouchy, surly, unkempt, humorless, dyed-in-the-wool objectivists... well... umm, yeah... mostly but there's still a spectrum of interests here. E.g., I am a tubes and horns guy Rekkids and tape, too. So, yeah, I took a wrong turn someplace, I guess. Actually, I came for the tear-downs of interesting, modern components, and the refreshing candor of the assessments... but I stayed for the expertise, general liveliness, and (ahem) catholicism* of topics and perspectives. Considerably less of an echo chamber than most places. Still, not everyone's cuppa chai.



____________
* with a lower case c! ... meaning universality, in the sense of broad-based, wide-ranging.

 

[Sal1950]

Yeah I get it. You have 11,000 posts on this forum. I have 4.

You've had this conversation a hundred times before. I have not.

But if you recall, you too had this conversation for a first time, once upon a time.

Maybe, just maybe, I'm here for a sincere exchange of information?

Apologies, but pay no attention to Matt, his post was aimed directly at me. He has a vinyl system that costs as much as a small car and goes nuts any time I mention the fact that turntables today can be fun toys, but really haven't been relevant in a High Fidelity system for a number of decades now.

There are any number of CDs crushed to death, sadly not just chart pop, and especially 'remastered' CDs where the originals had decent DR, the remastered ones don't.

Wah wah, the loudness war, it's mostly irrelevant to us.
That's where the Dynamic Range Database comes in. Can't help what a bunch of suit wankers did to music in the 90s and early 2000 but the fact is that the earlier CDs are readily available used and much of the classic music has again been remixed / remastered into high DR releases in 2 and more channels. I've got well over 4000 albums of rock, blues, and country music in my library and AFAIK none are LW victims. Unless your a lover of rap, hiphop, or Swifty type pop, the LW is a non issue.

 

[Dlr0657]

Apologies, but pay no attention to Matt, his post was aimed directly at me. He has a vinyl system that costs as much as a small car and goes nuts any time I mention the fact that turntables today can be fun toys, but really haven't been relevant in a High Fidelity system for a number of decades now.

Okay, but, what's wrong with fun toys?

I like fun toys.

It's not a great argument, but it's all I've got.

 

[MattHooper]

Yeah I get it. You have 11,000 posts on this forum. I have 4.

You've had this conversation a hundred times before. I have not.

But if you recall, you too had this conversation for a first time, once upon a time.

Maybe, just maybe, I'm here for a sincere exchange of information?

In case it wasn’t clear: I was not talking about forehead, banging with regards to your position, but rather the person you were responding to.

In either case, I was just talking about my own state of affairs and not making a suggestion that you refrain from such conversations. So please don’t take what I wrote as wanting to limit your questions at all!

Cheers

 

[Subwaffler]

Unless your a lover of rap, hiphop, or Swifty type pop, the LW is a non issue.

What do you have against Taylor Swift? Most of her releases are decently recorded, even on that old vinyl stuff.

 

[Sal1950]

What do you have against Taylor Swift? Most of her releases are decently recorded, even on that old vinyl stuff.

A average dynamic range of DR6,
That and music focused for 13yo girls isn't my style.
YMMV

 

[RexrothPigeon]

That and music focused for 13yo girls isn't my style.

no love for chuck berry, the beatles, elvis, motown, the stones, etc., then, I guess

 

[Sal1950]

no love for chuck berry, the beatles, elvis, motown, the stones, etc., then, I guess

What ??? Not one solo female performer in the bunch.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

What ??? Not one solo female performer in the bunch.

Their music (when they were in the charts) was focused on teenage girls. That was their market, as has always been the case in pop music.

 

[Subwaffler]

A average dynamic range of DR6,
That and music focused for 13yo girls isn't my style.
YMMV

You're looking at the CD's and the lossless downloads. The Dynamic Range of the LP pressings is mostly in the region of 10-12