Why Audiophiles Are Shopping for Vintage Turntables

[WilliamfromParis]

I love turntables, and I have the chance few months ago to bought a superb Technics SP-15 a must have for me when I was young and not the money to buy this gorgeous piece of HiFi. So even if there's no remote and I have to turn the LP to listening the second face, it's a pleasure everyday. Sometime the cover is a piece of art worthy to be exposed in a museum.

 

[pderousse]

The ‘ultimate middle finger’ sounds scary, a kind of nuclear option. But there are after all only two, so the one kept in reserve must be more wicked. I hate to imagine the antepenultimate middle finger..

 

[bagwell359]

My turntable has a 12 inch pivot tone arm, and I’ve played plenty of my records more times than I can remember, and if there’s been degradation, it’s been so little that I don’t notice it. These records still play clear, clean, and beautiful sounding.

Tracking angle distortion and damage to grooves is proven.

There’s a YouTube video in which somebody tested the claim that cheap turntables ruin records, so he played a new record on both a very cheap Crosley type turntable and a high-quality turntable. He played the record 100 times in a row, recording the output from each player and then shorter comparison of the very first play versus the hundredth play for both turntables, as well as showing the differences in the waveforms on a DAW.
The crappy turntable did degrade the sound.
But after playing the record 100 times on the good turntable it sounded virtually the same, and the waveform (which also showed tick and pops) showed very little if any relevant change.

So far that’s in line with my experience playing records many times on my own turntable.

I used to set up tables and arms for people for money and fun. I know turntables and vinyl. I'm glad for you that you think your vinyls are not being damaged.

Glad you made it out of a cult!

Fortunately, one doesn’t need to join a cult to enjoy playing records.

Don't mean to spoil a good time, just giving my take.

I never really had a problem with digital sound myself. I ditched records early on for CD in the 80s. And CDs were my happy playback format on my high end systems through the 90s and 2000s until I ripped my CDs and added streaming. CDs always sounded amazing to me. I also happen to like the sound of vinyl.

OK.

 

[Sal1950]

Tracking angle distortion and damage to grooves is proven.

I used to set up tables and arms for people for money and fun. I know turntables and vinyl. I'm glad for you that you think your vinyls are not being damaged.

Don't mean to spoil a good time, just giving my take.

OK.

They talk about LP's and Tables the same way the high ends cult talks about interconnects, speaker cable and power cords, forget about the truth & measurements, you just gotta believe in their ears.

 

[Waxx]

There are also differences in the vinyl listening public. You got the audiophool section where hey spend ridiculous amounts of money on space ship like setups with cells that costs thousands to listen to "audiophile vinyl". And the rest of the setup is also ridiculous

And you got the big masses that very often uses Technics turntables (because they are easy to use, high qualtiy; not too expensive and everywhere) or older, often enherited turntables to listen to vinyl the old way. They listen to vinyl for all kind of reasons and don't care much about the technical perfection, they want to enjoy listening to music and the vinyl ritual is a part of that for them. Those people use mostly or old receivers and speakers that are restored or modern mid priced amps and speakers (very often Yamaha, NAD, Marantz or Denon receivers and passive speakers), not the audiophoolery stuff. And many of them are young, have a phone with an IEM and a spotify or orther streaming account also. But that is background noise, the vinyl is active listening. They also laugh about the audiophoolery btw...

 

[AJM1981]

Tracking angle distortion and damage to grooves is proven.

I used to set up tables and arms for people for money and fun. I know turntables and vinyl. I'm glad for you that you think your vinyls are not being damaged.

Don't mean to spoil a good time, just giving my take.

OK.

I use good digital sources and loudspeakers for the sound quality. Which is being 'audio-nerd-ized' by an old amplifier that blooms the bass, lushes the mids and rolls of the treble. So everything is already not 'straight in the face' and whatever is on the record I am ok with that.

The whole hobby is is a secondary thing to digital and in owning some collectable art by an artist.

I often think about 'measurably flat' and perceived flat as that illusion difference with that bending of roman columns which makes them appear straight . Apart from the debate if that would be a valid argument, I like that bit of a romanticed sound in gear. Which is not about the record.

 

[Sal1950]

I often think about 'measurably flat' and perceived flat as that illusion difference with that bending of roman columns which makes them appear straight . Apart from the debate if that would be a valid argument, I like that bit of a romanticed sound in gear. Which is not about the record.

If you enjoy listening to distortion and noise more than what the artists-engineers attempt to bring into your life, be my guest. I just love music and have spent a lifetime trying to reproduce their artistry, bringing it into my listening room in as a clear/clean a manner as I can afford.

 

[Bland_username42069]

For me it always comes back to: ok digital is demonstrably superior but that’s not really any help if I want to listen to say Ray Russel’s Dragon Hill which is not on streaming (at least not an Apple Music)

Streaming is great - the choice really is fantastic these days but go down the rabbit hole of a genre and you will soon come to a place where streaming stops and 7 inch singles especially start.

 

[bagwell359]

There are also differences in the vinyl listening public. You got the audiophool section where hey spend ridiculous amounts of money on space ship like setups with cells that costs thousands to listen to "audiophile vinyl". And the rest of the setup is also ridiculous

And you got the big masses that very often uses Technics turntables (because they are easy to use, high qualtiy; not too expensive and everywhere) or older, often enherited turntables to listen to vinyl the old way. They listen to vinyl for all kind of reasons and don't care much about the technical perfection, they want to enjoy listening to music and the vinyl ritual is a part of that for them. Those people use mostly or old receivers and speakers that are restored or modern mid priced amps and speakers (very often Yamaha, NAD, Marantz or Denon receivers and passive speakers), not the audiophoolery stuff. And many of them are young, have a phone with an IEM and a spotify or orther streaming account also. But that is background noise, the vinyl is active listening. They also laugh about the audiophoolery btw...

I will defend the use of belt drive tables over direct drive in the moderate/low high end area. Also for all vinyl heads - please align your arms with readily available tools to get two zero mistracking angles and the highest overall lack of mistracking. And do find the correct VTA for the bulk of your vinyls. Those two steps will close the gap to the really expensive stuff that is haphazardly set up. Most arm/table combos are not set up correctly to start with, throw in the cartridge and its even more askew.

I did have many moments when the VPI TNT Jr/Souther SLA-3/Koetsu Rosewood Sig into a Pass Ono (~$13k in 2002 dollars) produced awesome results, but on average have more of those moments with my DACS, at much lower cost and fussiness.

 

[Waxx]

I heared good belt drives, but they are hard to maintain well, while a direct drive, and certainly a Quartz Servo motor like Technics, just works or not, and the motor noise is so low you can't hear it. And a 13K table is not priced right i think. Belt drive very often have inconsistant speeds, especially when the belt is already a certain age. Idler wheel turntables are even worse in that. But if you like that turntable, have fun. But you don't need a 13K table, a Technics SL1200GR does it as good or better than any belt drive i know and cost 1/6th of the price. VPI is no crap, but seriously overpriced in my opinion.

But you're right with the calibration. You should always calibrate your turntable, and certainly the cell so it's working optimum. And many don't do that while it's not that difficult to do.

 

[teched58]

I will defend the use of belt drive tables over direct drive in the moderate/low high end area. Also for all vinyl heads - please align your arms with readily available tools to get two zero mistracking angles and the highest overall lack of mistracking. And do find the correct VTA for the bulk of your vinyls. Those two steps will close the gap to the really expensive stuff that is haphazardly set up. Most arm/table combos are not set up correctly to start with, throw in the cartridge and its even more askew.

I did have many moments when the VPI TNT Jr/Souther SLA-3/Koetsu Rosewood Sig into a Pass Ono (~$13k in 2002 dollars) produced awesome results, but on average have more of those moments with my DACS, at much lower cost and fussiness.

I use a conical stylus so I don't have to worry much about arm alignment, nor an elliptical or other funky shaped (microline et al) stylus slicing the grooves up like salami because the stylus's profile is turned slightly the wrong way (which will usually be the case).

I would add (though this is an ex post facto justification) that if one wants to be period-correct to the mid-1960s (i.e., before the M91ED and V15 Type 3 Million came into vogue), one would use a conical stylus tracking at 5 grams. Me, I'm not a DJ so I track the conical on my M44 and M55s at 2 grams.

 

[bagwell359]

I use a conical stylus so I don't have to worry much about arm alignment, nor an elliptical or other funky shaped (microline et al) stylus slicing the grooves up like salami because the stylus's profile is turned slightly the wrong way (which will usually be the case).

That helps.

I would add (though this is an ex post facto justification) that if one wants to be period-correct to the mid-1960s (i.e., before the M91ED and V15 Type 3 Million came into vogue), one would use a conical stylus tracking at 5 grams. Me, I'm not a DJ so I track the conical on my M44 and M55s at 2 grams.

Interesting. The Denon 103D is the last conical I used - great bass.

 

[bagwell359]

I heared good belt drives, but they are hard to maintain well, while a direct drive, and certainly a Quartz Servo motor like Technics, just works or not, and the motor noise is so low you can't hear it. And a 13K table is not priced right i think.

You had to hear it. It was quite the rig - much of it used, so less to me. I had it in a closet, used excellent vinyl, record cleaner etc. Very expensive direct drives don't have issues with rumble/noise but the suspension on belts is usually better in the more sane price range.

Belt drive very often have inconsistant speeds, especially when the belt is already a certain age. Idler wheel turntables are even worse in that. But if you like that turntable, have fun. But you don't need a 13K table, a Technics SL1200GR does it as good or better than any belt drive i know and cost 1/6th of the price. VPI is no crap, but seriously overpriced in my opinion.

But you're right with the calibration. You should always calibrate your turntable, and certainly the cell so it's working optimum. And many don't do that while it's not that difficult to do.

Not the tables I was using, very speed correct, but an issue with some for sure. Oh I don't like it anymore, sold it 10 years ago and happily all done with vinyl.

 

[DSJR]

The ‘ultimate middle finger’ sounds scary, a kind of nuclear option. But there are after all only two, so the one kept in reserve must be more wicked. I hate to imagine the antepenultimate middle finger..

A now deceased pal of mine had a cylinder player with a collection of cylinders to play on it. The thing is, the 'fidelity' - or lack of it, wasn't even noted, but the vibe we always had was that the singers and musicians were long-ago passed away and what they might have felt a hundred and fifty years on, that people would want to hear what they'd recorded.

I suppose the same thing now goes for 78 shellac discs and many early LPs and singles from the 50s and now 60s as the artists are passing on.

 

[DSJR]

I use a conical stylus so I don't have to worry much about arm alignment, nor an elliptical or other funky shaped (microline et al) stylus slicing the grooves up like salami because the stylus's profile is turned slightly the wrong way (which will usually be the case).

I would add (though this is an ex post facto justification) that if one wants to be period-correct to the mid-1960s (i.e., before the M91ED and V15 Type 3 Million came into vogue), one would use a conical stylus tracking at 5 grams. Me, I'm not a DJ so I track the conical on my M44 and M55s at 2 grams.

The trouble for me and like so many here on ASR of similar 'vintage' to me, is that I got into 'digital' quite early on (mid 80s) and found 'vinyl' increasingly difficult to live with as time went on (a few years with a Decca Gold Microscanner and a turntable/arm to support it properly made all the difference however). Conical styli to me are the pits as the top gets progressively less as the side goes on and it really doesn't matter if it's a Rega Carbon/AT91 (the related but according to AT, NOT identical 3600L, is terminally dull all through the side) or a fine-conical Denon 103, the hf rolls off as side goes on and with a good CD of the same album with which to compare, for me the conical tip is terminal, even if a basic elliptical is little better...

My current vintage deck doesn't reach for the high end, but it's good enough to reproduce pickup differences and present what's in the grooves in a balanced fashion. It even handles a couple of MCs I have as well (I so miss the Koetsu Black I have which has a broken coil wire on one channel and which will cost hundreds to fix I think).

 

[Bland_username42069]

A now deceased pal of mine had a cylinder player with a collection of cylinders to play on it. The thing is, the 'fidelity' - or lack of it, wasn't even noted, but the vibe we always had was that the singers and musicians were long-ago passed away and what they might have felt a hundred and fifty years on, that people would want to hear what they'd recorded.

I suppose the same thing now goes for 78 shellac discs and many early LPs and singles from the 50s and now 60s as the artists are passing on.

That’s what I like about waxwing - a few button presses and it makes a 78 sound great.

 

[DSJR]

That’s what I like about waxwing - a few button presses and it makes a 78 sound great.

Back when, the Tannoy Variluctance pickup used to transform the 'sound' of many 78s played with it. Surface noise seemed reduced and there was 'sparkle' aplenty. It kind-of did for 78s what Deccas can do for LPs when they work...

 

[Sal1950]

For me it always comes back to: ok digital is demonstrably superior but that’s not really any help if I want to listen to say Ray Russel’s Dragon Hill which is not on streaming (at least not an Apple Music)

Streaming is great - the choice really is fantastic these days but go down the rabbit hole of a genre and you will soon come to a place where streaming stops and 7 inch singles especially start.

It amazes me that when this discussion gets started the digital source of choice stated is streaming.

 

[Bland_username42069]

It amazes me that when this discussion gets started the digital source of choice stated is streaming.

Or Cd or SACD. Whatever. It hardly makes a difference

 

[MattHooper]

I used to set up tables and arms for people for money and fun. I know turntables and vinyl. I'm glad for you that you think your vinyls are not being damaged.

I’m not saying that no damage happens objectively. In this type of mechanical system with a hard rock being dragged through an essentially soft surface, certainly there’s going to objectively be wear over time.

I’m pointing out that the way some people speak about the record wear can exaggerate the audible consequences. You’ve set up lots of turntables. I’ve owned my turntable for a long time and I have done plenty of comparisons myself, and I’ve got many records that I’ve listened to a great number of times, and whatever is happening objectively, subjectively the difference is so minuscule that the records tend to sound fantastic even after lots of plays, and similar to new records.

I mentioned a video in which a record was played 100 times on a decent turntable, and you can see and hear for yourself that the difference between the first player and the hundredth play was negligible.

Or at least if somebody said, it was significant serious degradation after 100 plays, I would certainly disagree with that characterization. Check it out for yourself;