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Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup

JeffS7444

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So, I am just wondering, why more people aren't wanting to do this type of setup, and if people do want this- how can we lobby to get Topping/SMSL/Etc. to make a DAC so we can start ditching our passive crossovers and get everything dialed in better than ever.
Here you go @1000 Euros, which seems like a fair price given the high level of performance and specialized nature:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/
But if the cost is a problem, perhaps you could find a way to drive multiple inexpensive 2-channel DACs from a master clock?

The only speaker currently on my wish list which might benefit from an 8-channel DAC is the Linkwitz LX521, but it's too big for my room.
 

mdsimon2

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Can that be operated as a standalone device? I was under the impression that it requires the use of a Mac or Windows PC.

Yes, it can work as a standalone device but in applications that are being described here you will want to run it with some sort of computer to implement DSP. I am using a RPi4 and CamillaDSP, it works great.

EDIT: I should add that your source does not need to be a computer as it has TOSLINK and coax inputs.

Michael
 
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HighImpactAV

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There are lots of ways to accomplish what you want. There are HDMI, USB, AES, SPDIF, ADAT, MADI, AVB, Dante, and Thunderbolt solutions.
  • Essence Evolve II-4K HDMI DAC
  • Multi-channel internal soundcard (have almost always had one since the early '90's)
  • Lynx AES16e plus 2 channel or multi-channel DACs with AES input (I have this and an 8 channel AES DAC)
  • RME Digiface USB plus 2 channel DACs with SPDIF input
  • RME Digiface AVB plus 2 channel or multi-channel AVB DACs (I have this and a 32 channel AVB DAC)
  • RME Digiface Dante plus 2 channel or multi-channel Dante DACs
  • Use the free Dante Virtual Soundcard and a Dante multi-channel DAC
  • Use a multi-channel USB DAC (I own 3 MOTU's. Just because they have extra features doesn't mean they cannot be used.)
  • You can also use a receiver via HDMI and use the output channels for active crossovers
There are already the higher end consumer multi-channel DACs like the Exasound E68 and MiniDSP SHD. I wonder how well they sell?
 

Honken

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Here you go @1000 Euros, which seems like a fair price given the high level of performance and specialized nature:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-okto-dac8-8ch-dac-amp.7064/
But if the cost is a problem, perhaps you could find a way to drive multiple inexpensive 2-channel DACs from a master clock?

The only speaker currently on my wish list which might benefit from an 8-channel DAC is the Linkwitz LX521, but it's too big for my room.
It can't be ordered at the moment however. It's a shame as the device is great. The low order numbers that members here are still mentioning, years after release, reinforces the fact that it is a niche device.

I'm currently only using 4 channels out (for a 2.2 setup) but I've been entertaining the idea of ripping out the XO of my current speakers since they seem easy to work with. Since I sold my old leftover amps I would unfortunately have to spend quite a bit to get going, on something that potentially doesn't work out better than what I have currently, I am a bit weary to go through with it. Knowing my luck I would likely blow up my tweeters in the process as well.

I do think it would be a fun experience to go through with an active rebuild though, and hopefully I'd learn a thing or two along the way.
 
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B&WTube

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What is wrong with the MOTU Ultralite Mk5? Right about your price range and good performance. Sure it probably has more inputs / outputs than you currently need but gives you plenty of options in the future, is pretty good for measuring electronics and is really quite compact (1U half rack).
Michael
Honestly, you may have found about the best current option... But I am being a little bit picky because, like you mentioned, it is a lot of stuff and it is really more for live music operations. So, if we cut the fat we don't need and upgrade some of the internals, a company should be able to make something better, for less money.

Here is a vision of what could easily be: Topping links up 2, lets say 3 E30's ($150 each, currently), and charges $400. Then, one could buy 3 Aiyima A07's and throw in opa1656's, for $250ish. Now buy a raspberry Pi 4 with wifi dongle, chromecast dongle, loaded with moode and camilla for another $200ish. You now have a ridiculously high performing source and amp setup for $850. Next, spend $1,050 (very doable) on your excellent MTMWW speaker build and you have a world class active tri-amped, room EQ'd stereo for $2k...It's not a bad dream, and not far fetched.

It can't be ordered at the moment however. It's a shame as the device is great. The low order numbers that members here are still mentioning, years after release, reinforces the fact that it is a niche device.

I'm currently only using 4 channels out (for a 2.2 setup) but I've been entertaining the idea of ripping out the XO of my current speakers since they seem easy to work with. Since I sold my old leftover amps I would unfortunately have to spend quite a bit to get going, on something that potentially doesn't work out better than what I have currently, I am a bit weary to go through with it. Knowing my luck I would likely blow up my tweeters in the process as well.

I do think it would be a fun experience to go through with an active rebuild though, and hopefully I'd learn a thing or two along the way.
Honestly, I think we are only just now getting to where these 4-8 channel DAC's make sense. 1) Because streaming audio, just this year, became the undisputed king of high quality audio with Apple and Amazon HD music 2) Good DAC's have only recently become cheap 3) Class D amps have just become cheap. 4) Raspberry Pi's have always been able to handle the programs and content to make all this goodness happen.

I am personally only wanting to go 2 way active crossover on a 3 way speaker, and will still remain passive on the tweeter because these crossovers are cheap and easy, and because tweeters are the most sensitive to electronic noise. Good luck!
 
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gene_stl

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With discrete high resolution multi-channel, the "surround hobby" wing should not be ruled out. (I get it that all these are niche hobbies)

Your "diatribe" sounds like what I have been saying since 1970.

Of course we didn't have digital crossovers yet, but analog works very well too.
I still have not made the switch. I have to say I have a level of mistrust of DSP crossovers. This is because I have seen too many digital pieces of equipment "get Alzheimers disease". If you are using unobtainium drivers you need to have VERY good driver protection. Multiple layers.

That alieexpress class D board looks quite interesting.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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t can't be ordered at the moment however. It's a shame as the device is great. The low order numbers that members here are still mentioning, years after release, reinforces the fact that it is a niche device.
The low numbers also reflect the company's inability to produce them any faster.
 

Robin L

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Sorry for the long unsolicited diatribe, but I am trying to create the demand and I want you on board! :D
No dice. I think these sorts of solutions are for people who want to invest a lot of time [and probably frustration] attempting solutions that have already been made in pro audio. For hobbyists, fine, for just listening to music?
 

JeffS7444

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With discrete high resolution multi-channel, the "surround hobby" wing should not be ruled out. (I get it that all these are niche hobbies)

Your "diatribe" sounds like what I have been saying since 1970.

Of course we didn't have digital crossovers yet, but analog works very well too.
I still have not made the switch. I have to say I have a level of mistrust of DSP crossovers. This is because I have seen too many digital pieces of equipment "get Alzheimers disease". If you are using unobtainium drivers you need to have VERY good driver protection. Multiple layers.
Sage thinking! You raise an excellent point about driver protection, and honestly I haven't fully thought that part through. I was originally looking at these, instead of software based crossovers: https://www.xkitz.com/collections/active-crossovers-and-bi-amplifiers-1, but there is still extra expense, more components in the signal path, and initial design tinkering becomes tricky/pricier, vs Camilla DSP. BUT, these Linkwitz Rileys are still a lot cheaper than building crossovers like this https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/3-way-speaker-kits/b741-scan-speak-kit-pair-by-peter-noerbaek/ and probably sound better, too.
 

Razorhelm

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These relatively cheap creative dacs are good for speaker crossovers.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ov...v3-usb-sound-card-sc-109-cl.html?template=amp

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-crossovers-via-rephase-and-camilladsp.19910/

I used one in my project here and it sounds amazing!

Considering the level of distortion in most amps and speakers they have easily good enough sinad for the job.

https://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/creative/surround51/2448.shtml

Not my measurements but the model I used.

Now that's not to say wouldn't love something the measures like the topping DACs at an equivalent per channel price!
 

Honken

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The low numbers also reflect the company's inability to produce them any faster.
True. I'm fairly certain that quite a few potential customers were put off by the long delivery times and the slow communication by the company when the orders were still open.
 

cyruz

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This "need" for a good priced and simple multichannel DAC pops out very often, lately...

I think it's just a matter of time and we will get one. The sooner the better for vendors and us. Just the fact that the Okto is not for sale now because of the too many orders should be an indication that there is a market for such a device...
 

audio2design

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AS MY TITLE CAUSED CONFUSION- THIS IS FOR A STEREO SETUP (NOT THEATER OR SURROUND)
It seems that the optimal way forward with sound quality is to get everything refined in the digital world, before sending it to great amps. In my opinion, this means using software to set active crossovers and DSP, then sending it through a great reclocking and DAC setup, and then having separate amps/amp modules for their respective driver(s). Not having the expense of passive crossover components, better signal preservation, more efficiently, and the ability to easily do steep roll offs is a big deal, IMO. However, it seems that there is not really a big push for this, in that there aren't really any great measuring DAC's for 4-8 channels.

MiniDSP has good software, but products don't really measure well. Motu has some workable things but they tend to be more professional use, so they are often huge with way more stuff than you need (because it is recording studio stuff). Allo has the Piano DAC, which is fine for what it is, but nothing stellar.

I looked at just taking something like 2 Topping DAC's, but apparently there are issues with not having a master clock to synch them together.

So, I am just wondering, why more people aren't wanting to do this type of setup, and if people do want this- how can we lobby to get Topping/SMSL/Etc. to make a DAC so we can start ditching our passive crossovers and get everything dialed in better than ever.

I get exactly what you mean, but some things to keep in mind:

- You don't need nearly as high of performance on the DAC as you may think, at least not on all channels. By you definition, most of the channels are significantly band limited. Right there, after analog filtering, your SNR goes way up except for high frequencies, but questionable whether you need the best SNR there. For the bass, great THD is also questionable given real world speaker performance and with the severe band limit (and ear response) SNR is not a concern. W.R.T. measurements, one really good channel (or two) for the mids, half decent high, and so-so bass is all you need.

- I would argue you need 8 channels per side (or more), but then again I dabble in speakers with complex driver arrays with "adjustable" dispersion patterns.

- Consistent and repeatable signal chain processing delay is also paramount. You don't need any specific value, it just must be fixed in all instances across sample rates / digital signal types. Left/right delays is not that super critical, but if you are doing multi-driver in a single speaker, it is. ..... good luck achieving that across multiple USB channels without a highly deterministic OS, if not a custom USB driver that manages multiple channels specifically for this purpose. Hence having a single USB channel and multiple DAC end points is functionally much better.
 

audio2design

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I have been interested in it, ever since this guy took his brand new Bowers & Wilkins 801 D3's, ynaked the crossovers, and went active. According to him and others, the sound was much improved (I was more in shock from someone gutting brand new $30k speakers).

Some cheap chip amps properly implemented with idealized cross-overs to me are going to beat uber-expensive amplifiers and uber expensive passives almost every time except when pushed to power limits.
 

mdsimon2

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This "need" for a good priced and simple multichannel DAC pops out very often, lately...

I think it's just a matter of time and we will get one. The sooner the better for vendors and us. Just the fact that the Okto is not for sale now because of the too many orders should be an indication that there is a market for such a device...

A matter of time until we get one? What about the countless ones mentioned in this thread?

I agree that these threads pop up all the time, which is rather odd considering the replies always include multiple options. Ignoring miniDSP products, I have 5 multichannel USB DACs on hand that accomplish what the OP wants. They are readily available.

Michael
 
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