Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup

[Music1969]

No it's not

Denon AVR-X6700H Home Theater AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X6700H "8k" 11.2 channel Audio/Video Receiver. It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $2,499 on Amazon with free shipping. AVRs look the same these days and the AVR-X6700H is no exception: Inside though, is quite...

audiosciencereview.com

You didn't link the correct review ;-)

Denon AVR-X6700H AVR Review (Updated)

This is an updated review of the Denon AVR-X6700H. I tested an early production 6700H a few weeks ago and found lower than expected performance. Denon Engineering traced this to a faulty capacitor( or capacitors) used in the initial run of this AVR. I requested an updated unit which the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Music1969]

Thanks so much, you've given me much to chew on. I am curious, do you import the filter transform or have to spec a number of biquad coefficients. I'm blown away that this is routine and I've been out to pasture so long, had no clue.

So I am also assuming that I can use the pre-outs to amps of my choice. And I can look and plan to, but do most of the better AVR's have say 5 band flexible PEQ for bass management?

Hi

Audiolense XO is a very advanced digital room correction software that will also manage DSP crossovers and convolver too.

You can use pre out to amps of your choice but as a DAC only the AVR can be bettered , especially with interfaces that have balanced outputs

But as a complete solution using built in amps with decent power like Denon 4700H and 6700H I think they do very well. Just run pure direct bypass all internal DSP

This way it is HDMI in with up to 8 pairs of speaker cables out to your drivers

 

[jtwrace]

You didn't link the correct review ;-)

Denon AVR-X6700H AVR Review (Updated)

This is an updated review of the Denon AVR-X6700H. I tested an early production 6700H a few weeks ago and found lower than expected performance. Denon Engineering traced this to a faulty capacitor( or capacitors) used in the initial run of this AVR. I requested an updated unit which the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I stand corrected, for an AVR, it's top notch so far.

 

[Music1969]

I stand corrected, for an AVR, it's top notch so far.

nothing new to me ;-)

 

[B&WTube]

nothing new to me ;-)

That is a fine AVR, especially for movies. However, that $3,000 Denon’s SINAD is 100dB, whereas the $100 Topping D10S is at 112dB. So, I see a problem with the value proposition of the Denon, for my purposes.

 

[dualazmak]

That is a fine AVR, especially for movies. However, that $3,000 Denon’s SINAD is 100dB, whereas the $100 Topping D10S is at 112dB. So, I see a problem with the value proposition of the Denon, for my purposes.

I agree with you.

Just for reference, last year in June, I intensively tested/evaluated Yamaha MX-A5200 (11-Ch multichannel AVR power amplifier) in my multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier project, and I concluded as;
Even though MX-A5200 functionally works perfectly in my project, from Total Sound Quality (SQ) point of view, I found that MX-A5200 is a little bit inferior, with my ears, to my Reference Sound system (EKIO - DAC8PRO - ACCUPHASE E460 - renovated LC-Network - NS-1000+YST-SW1000+T925A); I decided, consequently, not to use/choose YAMAHA MX-A5200 in my project.

That was actually the start of my long exploration journey of amplifiers in the project, and recently I finally decided to use the four separate HiFi integrated amplifiers as shared in my post here and here.

This topic was also recently discussed here on another thread.

Consequently, as I wrote in the above post #119, I really would like to reserve/secure my freedom in selection of XLR capable HiFi amplifiers to dedicatedly and directly (without LC network) drive each of my SP drivers in multichannel multi-way "stereo" system of our current discussion.

 

[Tangband]

AS MY TITLE CAUSED CONFUSION- THIS IS FOR A STEREO SETUP (NOT THEATER OR SURROUND)
It seems that the optimal way forward with sound quality is to get everything refined in the digital world, before sending it to great amps. In my opinion, this means using software to set active crossovers and DSP, then sending it through a great reclocking and DAC setup, and then having separate amps/amp modules for their respective driver(s). Not having the expense of passive crossover components, better signal preservation, more efficiently, and the ability to easily do steep roll offs is a big deal, IMO. However, it seems that there is not really a big push for this, in that there aren't really any great measuring DAC's for 4-8 channels.

MiniDSP has good software, but products don't really measure well. Motu has some workable things but they tend to be more professional use, so they are often huge with way more stuff than you need (because it is recording studio stuff). Allo has the Piano DAC, which is fine for what it is, but nothing stellar.

I looked at just taking something like 2 Topping DAC's, but apparently there are issues with not having a master clock to synch them together.

So, I am just wondering, why more people aren't wanting to do this type of setup, and if people do want this- how can we lobby to get Topping/SMSL/Etc. to make a DAC so we can start ditching our passive crossovers and get everything dialed in better than ever.

Yes , passive is a really bad thing compared to good active.
There is a very good 8 channel dac out there for this purpose - ESI Gigaport+.
This dac sounds really good , and is pitch accurate if the computers main board is good enough .
Read more here :

DAC discussions -

Edit : this dac is now replaced with a newer one , ESI Gigaport eX.

 

[EJ3]

Sound like you are missing out on building your own speakers! Seriously, though if you have something that is perfect for you- enjoy it! Active is a great solution for optimizing both loudspeaker performance and the design/testing/fine tuning.

I did use old sub cabs but got duel 4 ohm voice coil speakers that had a much longer throw for each cab & wired them to run 2 ohm now. The NAD 2200 doesn't seem to mind (it is rated to run 800 watts a channel into 2 ohms [although this was not tested by Amirm]). As to class D, for me, the verdict is still out. My NAD's have lasted since the 1987-89 (with 5 to ten year servicing intervals) & I expect them to last the rest of my life. If I were to replace the 6 NAD 2200's that I now own, it would not be with anything class D (I haven't listened to all of them but, so far, haven't heard any I like as well as what I have [&, for me, long term reliability & durability of moving 8000 miles from time to time, is an issue]. It would be with 3-6 Benchmark AHB2's. As you said: Seriously, though if you have something that is perfect for you- enjoy it! & I do, where ever I am, once the system is in place, it goes quite a # of years without any changes. My enjoyment comes from the listening, not the bothersome to me, changing or building the equipment.

 

[AudioJester]

Minidsp not good enough, Motu too many features, denon not good value...
I see there is a goldilocks zone for a product to fit all your preconceptions. Maybe Topping will come up with a multichannel dac some day.

 

[dualazmak]

Yes , passive is a really bad thing compared to good active.
There is a very good 8 channel dac out there for this purpose - ESI Gigaport+.
This dac sounds really good , and is pitch accurate if the computers main board is good enough .
Read more here :

DAC discussions -

Edit : this dac is now replaced with a newer one , ESI Gigaport eX.

I also touched on ESI Gigalport eX at here. Unfortunately (at least for myself), it does not have XLR balanced I/O.

 

[Music1969]

That is a fine AVR, especially for movies. However, that $3,000 Denon’s SINAD is 100dB, whereas the $100 Topping D10S is at 112dB. So, I see a problem with the value proposition of the Denon, for my purposes.

Yes in a later post I mentioned I wouldn't use it for it's RCA outputs...

I use it for: HDMI in and up to 8 pairs of speaker cables out to individual drivers

Good clean power and decent amount of power

Well over 100W into each of the 4 ohm drivers and never any over heating or amp shutting off

One box means less ground loop potentials and has remote control for volume (the Denon volume control is analogue domain)

I have a 'medium sized' room.

With the DSP headroom that needs to be applied to avoid digital clipping , it is possible in a large room you could run out of gas. That's the only issue I can see in practical sense but don't have this problem at all.

I never have to go louder than -20dB on the Denon (which goes to +10dB)

 

[jtwrace]

Minidsp not good enough, Motu too many features, denon not good value...
I see there is a goldilocks zone for a product to fit all your preconceptions. Maybe Topping will come up with a multichannel dac some day.

or someone like @Geshelli. Made here in the USA by a small company who clearly has the Engineering chops to pull it off.

 

[B&WTube]

Minidsp not good enough, Motu too many features, denon not good value...
I see there is a goldilocks zone for a product to fit all your preconceptions. Maybe Topping will come up with a multichannel dac some day.

Everybody wants to find their Goldilocks, lol!
I was lobbying on the Minidsp forum for them to do this (because it makes the most sense for them to do this), but they really don’t seem inclined to change. While there were a number of people who chimed in agreeing, you also had the avid minidsp users saying “I use a minidsp, and it sounds fine to me”. With Minidsp leading the market for active speaker builders, I suspect they are in a position of “Why should I build better products, when I don’t have any competition?”
Minidsp, is very easy to use and implement, which is what is concerning about Motu.
Finally, Topping, SMSL, Loxjie, Khadas, or Schiit (I am probably missing a couple), could all make this.

 

[mdsimon2]

What about the MOTU has you concerned around difficulty of use? IMO the most difficult thing is getting your arms around CamillaDSP, the MOTU itself is very straightforward.

Michael

 

[B&WTube]

What about the MOTU has you concerned around difficulty of use? IMO the most difficult thing is getting your arms around CamillaDSP, the MOTU itself is very straightforward.

Michael

Honestly, much of it is fear of the unknown. I know everything Motu has to be setup for whatever OS you are going to use, and I don’t completely understand if it is picky about the Linux version you pair it with, or if Ubuntu (which I haven’t used), is what plays nice with the Motu (perhaps it would be easiest to setup on my PC before deploying to DAC duty, but IDK. Then, you have to further set it up with CueMix5 (I have no idea how this works). Next, the Motu has a fixed sampling rate, and doesn’t automatically adjust with the source- so you would have to upsample before sending it to the Motu (and often upsampling sounds a little strange to me). Finally, I assume assigned output channels in Camilla/RPI are going to integrate/translate into the Motu’s channels in a straightforward way, but again, IDK.

In all reality, there are a number of uncertainties with my other route, BUT the Moode/Camilla online community is robust and has done this things like the OKTO DAC, and mini DSP- so I feel like I can get a variety of support/help/advise going this route.

The MOTU may be easier than I am thinking. It just seems like there are multiple layers of setup, OS pickiness, and lots of extra features to potentially have to fool with to make it jive with a RPI. I actually don’t like playing with, or trying to understand computers, at all. The RPI is just so good, tiny, and capable- it was worth learning, and the tutorials are plentiful (also plentiful for Moode/Camilla).

I envision a quick piece of code to drop in Camilla, for whichever version of my imaginary MCH DAC comes to existence (like they have for Minidsp and OKTO), and that’s it- you are off to the races. The reason ALLO sells products where you select the OS and player, and they preload it on the included RPI, is that people want as few steps as possible to get to a system where they can start doing what they want.

In addition to wanting great stuff- I don’t want speaker building to die (but it is not the youngest group of hobbyists). I want the hobby to go to the next level AND be appealing to the next generation. This is how I think we get there, but it is imperative that we have the trifecta of good/cheap/easy to use. s not that Millennials like good stuff, too- but they tend to be like, “Your $30k system sounds truly amazing, and I wish I had it- but $30k is so far out of my reach that, I don’t even want to start down this road.”

 

[Honken]

The MOTU may be easier than I am thinking. It just seems like there are multiple layers of setup, OS pickiness, and lots of extra features to potentially have to fool with to make it jive with a RPI. I actually don’t like playing with, or trying to understand computers, at all. The RPI is just so good, tiny, and capable- it was worth learning, and the tutorials are plentiful (also plentiful for Moode/Camilla).

Judging by the threads about the Ultralite MK5 I think that you are overthinking this a bit, the Motu seems to be working just fine with Linux as long as you use a recent enough kernel (>5.11?).

The only reason I went with the Okto myself (other than that I could) is that I really enjoy the remote, display and looks. You can get the same functionality out of a pro interface, even an IR remote with some tinkering, but I'd probably want to hide it somewhere because of how garish I think they look. Pro interfaces also give you some definitive... pros as well, like enabling loopback measurements and input for analog signals.

 

[mdsimon2]

You do not need to configure the MOTU for any particular OS. There is a small amount of setup needed in CueMix but that is very straightforward. Things like routing the usb input channels to usb output channels and saying which channels you want to have controlled by the master volume knob. Anyone that has ever used a computer will be able to do it. Once you have these basics setup you never need to touch CueMix.

Setting up CamillaDSP is a much more daunting task for the uninitiated. As some one who has both the Okto and the MOTU it is pretty much the same between the two. MOTU does seem to need a newer kernel version but works fine on Ubuntu 21.04. I posted step by step instructions as well as a basic CamillaDSP configuration in the thread below.

MOTU UltraLite-mk5 Review (Audio Interface)

when I read the manual, it looked like it was possible to assign multiple outputs to the volume control. page 35. https://cdn-data.motu.com/manuals/usb-c-audio/UltraLite-mk5_User_Guide.pdf Sorry, the question I answered was about the M4, but I should have made that clear that in the reply...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The MOTU does not have a fixed sample rate and can adjust with the source. CamillaDSP DOES have a fixed sample rate once started, so you either need to resample everything to a consistent rate or you can use a plugin to restart CamillaDSP each time the sample rate changes. This is the same with using CamillaDSP with any DAC. I personally resample as going to a higher sample rate like 96 kHz prevents high frequency warping.

Michael

 

[somebodyelse]

Yes , passive is a really bad thing compared to good active.
There is a very good 8 channel dac out there for this purpose - ESI Gigaport+.
This dac sounds really good , and is pitch accurate if the computers main board is good enough .
Read more here :

DAC discussions -

Edit : this dac is now replaced with a newer one , ESI Gigaport eX.

I've seen conflicting reports about that one.
https://nathaliebeimler.com/tech/sound_card_esi_gigaport_ex.html
https://prosound.ixbt.com/interfaces/esi-gigaport-ex.shtml

 

[Honken]

you can use a plugin to restart CamillaDSP each time the sample rate changes

That's my solution, ish. It looked a bit more involved than I liked so I wrote a quick 'n dirty script to do that instead, and it has been working without a hitch for over a month now:

Spoiler

#!/bin/bash
set -euo pipefail
shopt -s globstar nullglob
template=/etc/camilladsp/config_template.yml
decoratedConfig=/etc/camilladsp/config_out.yml
captureCardHwParams=/proc/asound/Loopback/pcm0p/sub0/hw_params
format=S32LE
channels=2
rate=44100
changed=0
while sleep 1
do
  while read -ra params
  do
    if [[ ${params[0]} = closed ]] && [[ $(systemctl -q is-active camilladsp && echo "$?") = 0 ]]
    then
      systemctl stop camilladsp
      continue
    elif [[ ${params[0]} != closed ]] && [[ $(systemctl -q is-active camilladsp && echo "$?") != 0 ]]
    then
      systemctl start camilladsp
      continue
    fi
    if [[ ${params[0]} = format: ]] && [[ ${params[1]/_} != "$format" ]]
    then
      format="${params[1]/_}"
      changed=1
      continue
    fi
    if [[ ${params[0]} = channels: ]] && [[ ${params[1]} != "$channels" ]]
    then
      channels="${params[1]}"
      changed=1
      continue
    fi
    if [[ ${params[0]} = rate: ]] && [[ ${params[1]} != "$rate" ]]
    then
      rate="${params[1]}"
      changed=1
      continue
    fi
  done < "$captureCardHwParams"
  if [[ $changed = 1 ]]
  then
    cp "$template" "$decoratedConfig"
    sed -e "s/%FORMAT%/$format/" -e "s/%CHANNELS%/$channels/" -e "s/%SAMPLERATE%/$rate/" -i "$decoratedConfig"
    systemctl restart camilladsp
    changed=0
  fi
done
exit 0

 

[mdsimon2]

Nice! Thank you for sharing, that does seem simpler than the alsa cdsp plugin. I wouldn’t be opposed to something like that so that I could have all of my resampling done in CamillaDSP rather than my player.

Michael