Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup

[B&WTube]

It already exists at a very high level. Having just completed implementation using Audiolense with the help of @mitchco, I can say it's there.

Now we just need @Geshelli to make a MCH dac to simplify things.

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You are definitely right. IMO, the KEY word in what Laurie said was ‘economical’. This is why I bring up the tiny, simple, great measuring DAC’s that are currently available that could be relatively easily be put in one box (only need 1 power supply, and 1 screen) and link them via a master clock (I would think manufacturer’s cost of the master clock would be notably less than the extra cases, power supplies, and screens). IMO, it could/should sell at say $300-$600 (depending on 4,6, or 8 outs). A 6 out unit would probably makes the most sense to start with, to take care of the 3-way speaker builders…For those who don’t build, designing a 3-way passive crossover is substantially more difficult than a 2-way.

 

[jtwrace]

You are definitely right. IMO, the KEY word in what Laurie said was ‘economical’. This is why I bring up the tiny, simple, great measuring DAC’s that are currently available that could be relatively easily be put in one box (only need 1 power supply, and 1 screen) and link them via a master clock (I would think manufacturer’s cost of the master clock would be notably less than the extra cases, power supplies, and screens). IMO, it could/should sell at say $300-$600 (depending on 4,6, or 8 outs). A 6 out unit would probably makes the most sense to start with, to take care of the 3-way speaker builders…For those who don’t build, designing a 3-way passive crossover is substantially more difficult than a 2-way.

Gotcha. I mean, there is miniDSP for economical. My Motu Mk5 I snagged used from Guitar Center for $485 (I was like a monkey on meth looking) then Audiolense XO for $430. That's really not bad for the power that you get IMO.

The key is to get the people off the cap and resistor swapping train though. That demand will drive manufacturers in "our" direction and bring the costs/options to us. As you know, the only non pro MCH dacs are insanely expensive and totally unnecessary. People love that man jewelry though.

 

[Music1969]

I think my title caused confusion. This is for a quality stereo setup, NOT surround sound.

AVR can be used as 8 channel DAC and amps

In stereo setup

With DSP crossover/s done in software

 

[jtwrace]

AVR can be used as 8 channel DAC and amps

In stereo setup

With DSP crossover/s done in software

We want stellar measurements too though.

 

[EJ3]

I think my title caused confusion. This is for a quality stereo setup, NOT surround sound.
It also benefits pretty much every speaker to gut the passive crossovers and run this style. This is the ultimate in separation, clarity, and tunability.

My pair of speakers (Designed by Jon Dahlquist [with Saul Marantz & Carl Marchisotto of Nola), according to actual published testing (stereo review, Sept 87), are +-2 db from 26 HZ-20 KHZ using the original (replaced now with NEW modern but original specification caps) in the 1990 passive crossovers. I have one NAD 2200 (see Amirm's review of one of my NAD 2200's here) per DQ-905 running bridged at 4 ohms and a NAD 2200 running stereo at 4 ohms for a pair of subs. I use the DAC in my oppo 205 UDP & only see DSP as something to use for room correction (although it perhaps would be useful for sub crossovers). Maybe I am missing something here?

 

[JRS]

I think I may be headed in that direction as well--Audiolense. Need tri-amping, however. If only the elusive Okta DAC would become available, that combo seems like a very capable no-brainer (that is you have someone like Mitch to help). I've had a pampered past with DEQX where the process is pretty much debugged and the path well worn.

 

[jtwrace]

I think I may be headed in that direction as well--Audiolense. Need tri-amping, however. If only the elusive Okta DAC would become available, that combo seems like a very capable no-brainer (that is you have someone like Mitch to help). I've had a pampered past with DEQX where the process is pretty much debugged and the path well worn.

It takes a bit but the payoff is well worth it IMO. I really wasn't expecting much honestly. I've gotten rid of so much wires, boxes and stuff it's great.

 

[JRS]

AVR can be used as 8 channel DAC and amps

In stereo setup

With DSP crossover/s done in software

Please elaborate--can an external XO of any steepness and linear phase be used? I'm happy to buy the software, was unaware that FIR filters could be implemented using a non-native source.

 

[JRS]

It takes a bit but the payoff is well worth it IMO. I really wasn't expecting much honestly. I've gotten rid of so much wires, boxes and stuff it's great.

I've read MItch's e-book and understood it clearly thanks to the DEQX and building many active speakers along with a DSP class in grad school, so the fear for me is all about the interface, and getting the info where it needs to go--really simple stuff, but that w/o help can lead to rivers of tears, and enough teeth gnashing to leave nubs.

So how was Audiolense? Did you do gated msmts at 1 meter, fix the impulse response, and then do room correction? Also are all the filters uploaded to a Roon cloud, and if so can they be split into 6 channels to tri-amp or is that done using a computer and DSP interface in real time--I guess there's a lot I don't understand. am completely clueless about.

 

[jtwrace]

I've read MItch's e-book and understood it clearly thanks to the DEQX and building many active speakers along with a DSP class in grad school, so the fear for me is all about the interface, and getting the info where it needs to go--really simple stuff, but that w/o help can lead to rivers of tears, and enough teeth gnashing to leave nubs.

Honestly, the measuring part isn't that bad. @mitchco is the most patient person I've ever dealt with in audio. 120 emails and it's done. I had a hard time learning how to count to 8 using 0-7.

So how was Audiolense? Did you do gated msmts at 1 meter, fix the impulse response, and then do room correction? Also are all the filters uploaded to a Roon cloud, and if so can they be split into 6 channels to tri-amp or is that done using a computer and DSP interface in real time--I guess there's a lot I don't understand. am completely clueless about.

No, all measurements were taken at the LP. Filter is just loaded into Roon from your computer. That's it! There are many options other than Roon though. JRiver is another that can use the filter. You can read Mitch's post here for more in depth info. And of course watch the interview I did with him here.

 

[Spocko]

AS MY TITLE CAUSED CONFUSION- THIS IS FOR A STEREO SETUP (NOT THEATER OR SURROUND)
It seems that the optimal way forward with sound quality is to get everything refined in the digital world, before sending it to great amps. In my opinion, this means using software to set active crossovers and DSP, then sending it through a great reclocking and DAC setup, and then having separate amps/amp modules for their respective driver(s). Not having the expense of passive crossover components, better signal preservation, more efficiently, and the ability to easily do steep roll offs is a big deal, IMO. However, it seems that there is not really a big push for this, in that there aren't really any great measuring DAC's for 4-8 channels.

MiniDSP has good software, but products don't really measure well. Motu has some workable things but they tend to be more professional use, so they are often huge with way more stuff than you need (because it is recording studio stuff). Allo has the Piano DAC, which is fine for what it is, but nothing stellar.

I looked at just taking something like 2 Topping DAC's, but apparently there are issues with not having a master clock to synch them together.

So, I am just wondering, why more people aren't wanting to do this type of setup, and if people do want this- how can we lobby to get Topping/SMSL/Etc. to make a DAC so we can start ditching our passive crossovers and get everything dialed in better than ever.

It's actually out there, 4-channel DAC/Pre-amp with active crossovers exactly as you described and it includes the amazing room correction system with the crazy cool 3D microphone - by Trinnov called ST2-HiFi (pro version also available, and of course, you must get the remote because it's awesome).

 

[Music1969]

We want stellar measurements too though.

Denon AVR 6700H is great? ASR measurements

 

[Music1969]

Please elaborate--can an external XO of any steepness and linear phase be used? I'm happy to buy the software, was unaware that FIR filters could be implemented using a non-native source.

Yes of course.

I use an AVR with 2.2 speaker setup. 2-way DIY active speakers, so I use 6 channels.

Audiolense XO does the DSP crossover and convolver.

Each driver has it's own DAC and amp, via the AVR.

Denon AVR is running in 'Pure Direct' mode, to bypass all its internal DSP.

 

[jtwrace]

Denon AVR 6700H is great? ASR measurements

No it's not

Denon AVR-X6700H Home Theater AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X6700H "8k" 11.2 channel Audio/Video Receiver. It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $2,499 on Amazon with free shipping. AVRs look the same these days and the AVR-X6700H is no exception: Inside though, is quite...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[JRS]

Yes of course.

I use an AVR with 2.2 speaker setup. 2-way DIY active speakers, so I use 6 channels.

Audiolense XO does the DSP crossover and convolver.

Each driver has it's own DAC and amp, via the AVR.

Denon AVR is running in 'Pure Direct' mode, to bypass all its internal DSP.

Thanks so much, you've given me much to chew on. I am curious, do you import the filter transform or have to spec a number of biquad coefficients. I'm blown away that this is routine and I've been out to pasture so long, had no clue.

So I am also assuming that I can use the pre-outs to amps of my choice. And I can look and plan to, but do most of the better AVR's have say 5 band flexible PEQ for bass management?

 

[B&WTube]

Gotcha. I mean, there is miniDSP for economical. My Motu Mk5 I snagged used from Guitar Center for $485 (I was like a monkey on meth looking) then Audiolense XO for $430. That's really not bad for the power that you get IMO.

The key is to get the people off the cap and resistor swapping train though. That demand will drive manufacturers in "our" direction and bring the costs/options to us. As you know, the only non pro MCH dacs are insanely expensive and totally unnecessary. People love that man jewelry though.

Yeah, but the minDSP doesn't have a very good DAC portion, unfortunately. The Motu MK5 really might be the best current way to go, but it really is way more than I (and most need). The robustness might make it harder to setup the USB outputs on a Raspberry Pi to go to the correct channel on the Mk5, IDK. I think converting people is going to need to be a little bit on the simple side, where I could just make a quick YouTube tutorial.
You are right though- we have to get people off the passive xovers. Better performance and easier tuning. What's not to love?!

My pair of speakers (Designed by Jon Dahlquist [with Saul Marantz & Carl Marchisotto of Nola), according to actual published testing (stereo review, Sept 87), are +-2 db from 26 HZ-20 KHZ using the original (replaced now with NEW modern but original specification caps) in the 1990 passive crossovers. I have one NAD 2200 (see Amirm's review of one of my NAD 2200's here) per DQ-905 running bridged at 4 ohms and a NAD 2200 running stereo at 4 ohms for a pair of subs. I use the DAC in my oppo 205 UDP & only see DSP as something to use for room correction (although it perhaps would be useful for sub crossovers). Maybe I am missing something here?

Sound like you are missing out on building your own speakers! Seriously, though if you have something that is perfect for you- enjoy it! Active is a great solution for optimizing both loudspeaker performance and the design/testing/fine tuning.

Here are some performance highlights:
-Horizontal and Vertical Bi-amping (yes you can do it with passives, but it is mandatory here, and it just so happens we finally have good and cheap class D amps to do this with)
-Every signal for every driver is kept separate for all processing.
-Every signal for every driver is kept separate for all amplification/each amp only has to produce the only the frequency range of its respective driver/drivers.
-Speaker efficiency goes up, as we are not wasting power bleeding it off in the crossovers.
-A 3-way and 4-way speaker can have a ton of parts in their crossovers, and each part has varying tolerances/noise. The more of these components you add the more likely you are losing some sound quality.

Here are some design/testing/fine tuning highlights:
-You can more easily match drivers which would have been very tough to integrate with passive (next point shows part of the why)
-If you need a steep rolloff, like a 6th order crossover-you no longer have to worry about the expense and complexity of boatload of parts (many argue the more complex the crossover, the more you harm the signal).
-You don't have to either A) take crossover in and out of box to tweak OR B)don't have to build and test the crossover externally (
-You don't have to keep soldering and unsoldering for every change/tweak- you just do it on the computer.

I hope that helps shine some light on why I am trying to champion this cause.

 

[JRS]

Honestly, the measuring part isn't that bad. @mitchco is the most patient person I've ever dealt with in audio. 120 emails and it's done. I had a hard time learning how to count to 8 using 0-7.

No, all measurements were taken at the LP. Filter is just loaded into Roon from your computer. That's it! There are many options other than Roon though. JRiver is another that can use the filter. You can read Mitch's post here for more in depth info. And of course watch the interview I did with him here.


View attachment 155997

Thanks for the Mitch links, I'll be back.

 

[jtwrace]

Yeah, but the minDSP doesn't have a very good DAC portion, unfortunately. The Motu MK5 really might be the best current way to go, but it really is way more than I (and most need). The robustness might make it harder to setup the USB outputs on a Raspberry Pi to go to the correct channel on the Mk5, IDK. I think converting people is going to need to be a little bit on the simple side, where I could just make a quick YouTube tutorial.
You are right though- we have to get people off the passive xovers. Better performance and easier tuning. What's not to love?!

Gosh you're picky. yes, I totally agree that the Motu is more than we need...it just measures really well and isn't so stupid expensive so it made it worth a try to me. There is a guy that makes it work with an RPi but seemed a bit too much dicking around for me. I'm sure you know about him but check it out here. I just built a NUC and went that route direct..perfection!

 

[dualazmak]

You are definitely right. IMO, the KEY word in what Laurie said was ‘economical’. This is why I bring up the tiny, simple, great measuring DAC’s that are currently available that could be relatively easily be put in one box (only need 1 power supply, and 1 screen) and link them via a master clock (I would think manufacturer’s cost of the master clock would be notably less than the extra cases, power supplies, and screens). IMO, it could/should sell at say $300-$600 (depending on 4,6, or 8 outs). A 6 out unit would probably makes the most sense to start with, to take care of the 3-way speaker builders…For those who don’t build, designing a 3-way passive crossover is substantially more difficult than a 2-way.

I essentially agree with you.

I like to continue doing the digital EQ/DSP using reasonably priced but reliable software like EKIO which I am using. Even though my OKTO DAC8PRO is just fine and working perfectly in my latest multichannel multi-driver multi-way multi-amplifier configuration, I really would like to have "one box" multichannel DAC of "similar nice measurements" which would enable 10 to 16 channel operation in full sync. I also really would like to reserve/secure my freedom in selection of XLR capable HiFi amplifiers to dedicatedly and directly (without LC network) drive each of my SP drivers. This means, at least in my case, I do not need, do not like, any of "one-box type" multichannel amplifiers.

You mentioned possible reasonable (XLR capable, I hope) "2-in 6-out" multichannel DAC, and that would be also nice in my case, if two of such "2-in 6-out" DAC can be fully in sync (by master clock or by AES/EBU clock sync), and if the specific USB driver can recognize the two "2-in 6-out" DACs, enabling 12-out from software crossover DSP-EQ like EKIO; EKIO has no limitation of crossover and output channel numbers if the USB driver would recognize all of the 12 output channels.

 

[B&WTube]

It's actually out there, 4-channel DAC/Pre-amp with active crossovers exactly as you described and it includes the amazing room correction system with the crazy cool 3D microphone - by Trinnov called ST2-HiFi (pro version also available, and of course, you must get the remote because it's awesome).

Very slick setup, and that remote is pretty rad looking...but $4,900. Many of my DIY audio people are not that spendy, but most already have the omni directional mics and testing software. Here is my " vision of what could easily be", from a post much earlier in this thread, "Topping links up 2, lets say 3 E30's ($150 each, currently) with one master clock, and charges $400. Then, one could buy 3 Aiyima A07's AND throw in opa1656's, for $250ish. Now buy a raspberry Pi 4 with wifi dongle, chromecast/bluetooth dongle, and loaded it with moode and camilla for another $200ish. You now have a ridiculously high performing source and amp setup for $850. Next, spend $1,050 (very doable) on your excellent MTMWW speaker build and you have a world class active tri-amped, room EQ'd stereo for $2k...It's not a bad dream, and not far fetched."