Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup

[EJ3]

(not everyone building active speakers cares about streaming).

Or even passive stereo whose old fashioned crosovers in a pair of Dahlquist M-905's end up +-2 Db from 26 Hz-20 KHz (one restomodded NAD 2200 bridged mono amp [running 4 ohms] per speaker) and another restomodded NAD 2200 amp running 2 ohms for the pair of passive subs 20 Hz-80 Hz (+-Db unknown as of yet): I have never streamed & can't say that I will or won't. But it is not on my agenda to do so.

Lab Input Measurements NAD 2200 (AMIRM)
I was surprised that the frequency response was not flat but was relieved to see later in the thread that this is due to insertion of low and high pass filters. So here is the frequency response with Lab input that doesn't have such a filter:

Response now (in green) as it should be, ruler flat to below 10 Hz, and well extending past the 40 kHz limit of this measurement.

I figured the filters may be adding some noise/distortion so re-ran the dashboard again:

Wow, we have one kilowatt of power coming out of this amp in short duration!

AGAIN: I have never streamed & can't say that I will or won't. But it is not on my agenda to do so.

 

[Giant1961]

For some years I have been a happy owner of an active system based on a dedicated fanless PC with Jriver as a player, convolutions of FIR filters generated with acourate, a focusrite 18i20, Hypex NC modules (alternatively TPA3251-55 and IRS2092) and 4-way speakers built by me. I don't think there is a system that sounds better at the same price.

Recently I approached the ADS21489 SHARC and ADAU1467 cards of Analog Device that I find very useful for those who want to assemble an active system without having to turn on a PC, launch a player etc. While I strongly advise against the 21489 I would recommend the 1467 for its simplicity of use and its versatility

 

[Sal1950]

For some years I have been a happy owner of an active system based on a dedicated fanless PC with Jriver as a player, convolutions of FIR filters generated with acourate, a focusrite 18i20, Hypex NC modules (alternatively TPA3251-55 and IRS2092) and 4-way speakers built by me.

Wow!
Welcome to ASR.
We'd love to hear more about your journey building this system.
Why don't you start a thread in Members Area giving us some more detail.
TIA
Sal

 

[dualazmak]

For some years I have been a happy owner of an active system based on a dedicated fanless PC with Jriver as a player, convolutions of FIR filters generated with acourate, a focusrite 18i20, Hypex NC modules (alternatively TPA3251-55 and IRS2092) and 4-way speakers built by me.

Welcome to ASR Forum.
I fully agree with @Sal1950's above invitation to our Members Area.

Just for your reference, you would please visit my thread on multichannel multi-driver multi-way multi-amplifier project.
You can find my latest system configuration/setup here on my thread.
Please find here (on my thread) and here (remote independent thread post) the Hyperlink Index of my multichannel multi-amplifier project.

 

[dped90]

My 5.1 system build is badly overdue. And probably the best value multichannel DAC in the $4K range has three channels more than I need. https://www.exasound.com/Products/e688-channelDAC.aspx

Also, the e68 has no balanced outputs which I want for feeding my pair of subs-and which I then want to daisy chain to feed a second pair of subs. So balanced lines will be needed to minimize noise risks with long cable lengths.

Sure, I could buy two ~$3K stereo DACs, as most include balanced outputs. But there will be no center channel.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Definitely consider the cheaper alternatives with no or minimal sonic compromise:
Okto DAC8 Pro (also has AES/EBU inputs!)
Topping DM7

 

[dped90]

Definitely consider the cheaper alternatives with no or minimal sonic compromise:
Okto DAC8 Pro (also has AES/EBU inputs!)
Topping DM7

I know you've suggested these alternatives before, and I haven't actually heard those DACs-nor do I know how they measure vs. the Exasound-and I've well learned that measured performance is what counts most by far at this forum. But like most things you get what you pay for, and regional and/or other factors impacting manufacturing costs notwithstanding, expecting a <$1K DAC to sound as pleasing as a $4K DAC is just plain silly.

And with all due respect to Exasound, after marketing at least two prior models-and one which was not that shy of the e68's price-the e68 should have been designed with a larger chassis to allow upgrades-like at least one pair of balanced outputs. And perhaps other desirable options like less channels (for my 5.1 system), better quality conversion and/or more functionality. I for one would have gladly paid an extra ~$1500. for such a DAC.

What's long overdue is some well-designed and stiffly competitive alternatives for multichannel DACs.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I know you've suggested these alternatives before, and I haven't actually heard those DACs-nor do I know how they measure vs. the Exasound-and I've well learned that measured performance is what counts most by far at this forum. But like most things you get what you pay for, and regional and/or other factors impacting manufacturing costs notwithstanding, expecting a <$1K DAC to sound as pleasing as a $4K DAC is just plain silly.

They have all been measured here and at Stereophile. I own and use all three. None have failed in use.

And with all due respect to Exasound, after marketing at least two prior models-and one which was not that shy of the e68's price-the e68 should have been designed with a larger chassis to allow upgrades-like at least one pair of balanced outputs.

I agree. George used to offer e38s with mini-XLRs (I had one of those) but I suggested just adding a db25 connector (for balanced output) to the standard unbalanced device.

And perhaps other desirable options like less channels (for my 5.1 system), better quality conversion and/or more functionality. I for one would have gladly paid an extra ~$1500. for such a DAC.

OK. So how is the Okto unsuitable?

What's long overdue is some well-designed and stiffly competitive alternatives for multichannel DACs.

And I'm saying "They're here."

 

[dped90]

They have all been measured here and at Stereophile. I own and use all three. None have failed in use.

I agree. George used to offer e38s with mini-XLRs (I had one of those) but I suggested just adding a db25 connector (for balanced output) to the standard unbalanced device.

OK. So how is the Okto unsuitable?

And I'm saying "They're here."

Ok, I found your review https://www.stereophile.com/content/okto-research-dac8-pro-da-processor-specifications

Again, I can't attest to what it sounds like because I've never heard it.

However, if this Okto model is the killer DAC you're implying then why haven't there been reviews of it at Absolute Sound, enjoythemusic, Confessions of a Part Time Audiophile, Soundstage, et al? Most likely because it stands to reason that they consider their time better spend elsewhere than comparing two DACs with a > 3x price difference between them.

Or maybe there isn't much, if any audible difference between the the e68 and the Okto Pro 8? Of course, you never actually compared the sound of that DAC with any Exasound model or any other DAC brand in your review. And since no other professional reviewers have apparently received these DACs-except Kal Rubinson, who presumably has done done side-by-side listening tests with a variety recordings-then such a consensus of opinion among those reviewers is impossible.

Oh, I forgot, measurements, rather than listening tests is all that matters.

Hardly the kind of product competition I was calling for.

In any case, adding a "db25" connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature_(professional_audio) would be useless for my app if the e68 DAC did not include the differential output circuitry to thereby provide common mode noise reduction.

 

[DWPress]

And since no other professional reviewers have apparently received these DACs-except Kal Rubinson

Excuse me sir but we are talking about an incredibly nitch market here. Your objection is moot because many of the other reviewers you seem to hold in such esteem wouldn't have much practical use case understanding of a multichannel DAC. Cal is one of the few actually knowledgeable reviewers with his feet in the water with multichannel. Exasound is one option, you were kindly given 2 other really good options which have both been measured here and elsewhere and are audibly transparent in the signal chain and probably far better than your sources and definitely better than the amps they'll be feeding.

expecting a <$1K DAC to sound as pleasing as a $4K DAC is just plain silly.

Agreed, money can't buy functional brain cells....

 

[dped90]

Excuse me sir but we are talking about an incredibly nitch market here. Your objection is moot because many of the other reviewers you seem to hold in such esteem wouldn't have much practical use case understanding of a multichannel DAC. Cal is one of the few actually knowledgeable reviewers with his feet in the water with multichannel. Exasound is one option, you were kindly given 2 other really good options which have both been measured here and elsewhere and are audibly transparent in the signal chain and probably far better than your sources and definitely better than the amps they'll be feeding.



Agreed, money can't buy functional brain cells....

Do Kal Rubinson and others here also possess you skills at mindreading? How would you know if reviewers among those I cited are lacking in comparable experience with multichannel sound?

Beyond finding this thread devolving into veiled personal attacks, what initially drew me to this thread was the value of its title. Perhaps there are so few multichannel DACs because the price structure of the audiophile DAC market-indeed the entire audiophile hardware market-has been overheated by wealthy audiophiles-to the point where profits would be too weak to produce multichannel DACs that sound pleasing to most ears as well as measure cleanly.

And there's no denying that LISTENING tests in DAC reviews are as important as measurements. This is done extensively by Stereophile and the other editors cited above, such as https://www.stereophile.com/content/exasound-s88-multichannel-da-processor-page-2

Speaking of measurements, noted here were problems with this Exasound model's coax and optical outputs.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/exasound-s88-multichannel-da-processor-measurements I also learned that those on the e68 have similar problems. Another reason to lament the paucity of such hardware on the audiophile market.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

However, if this Okto model is the killer DAC you're implying then why haven't there been reviews of it at Absolute Sound, enjoythemusic, Confessions of a Part Time Audiophile, Soundstage, et al? Most likely because it stands to reason that they consider their time better spend elsewhere than comparing two DACs with a > 3x price difference between them.

None of them have any serious interest in multichannel apart from HT. Also, it's too cheap.

Or maybe there isn't much, if any audible difference between the the e68 and the Okto Pro 8? Of course, you never actually compared the sound of that DAC with any Exasound model or any other DAC brand in your review.

Not worth commenting on. My reference is the exaSound s88.

In any case, adding a "db25" connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature_(professional_audio) would be useless for my app if the e68 DAC did not include the differential output circuitry to thereby provide common mode noise reduction.

Duh. Since there was a mini-XLR version of the e38, including that additional circuitry is possible. The only limitation we are dealing with here is rear panel area and the db25 resolves that.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

How would you know if reviewers among those I cited are lacking in comparable experience with multichannel sound?

You could look for examples of that experience in print or on line.

And there's no denying that LISTENING tests in DAC reviews are as important as measurements.

Not so much as you think.

Speaking of measurements, noted here were problems with this Exasound model's coax and optical outputs.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/exasound-s88-multichannel-da-processor-measurements I also learned that those on the e68 have similar problems. Another reason to lament the paucity of such hardware on the audiophile market.

Those have been resolved with firmware updates and adjusted settings.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Oh, and in answer to the title of your thread: "Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup:"
Go ahead, organize and make your case to the manufacturers. We are all in favor of that.

 

[dped90]

Duh. Since there was a mini-XLR version of the e38, including that additional circuitry is possible. The only limitation we are dealing with here is rear panel area and the db25 resolves that.

What's technically possible is a giant step away from technically probable. And what such an upgrade the brand is actually willing to do-AND when-makes it all even further away from usefulness.

 

[dped90]

Those have been resolved with firmware updates and adjusted settings.

The e68 is the one Exasound model that comes closest to meeting both my needs and price-at least it would if included a pair of balanced outputs. But a recent reply from Exasound gave no indication that this DAC's SPDIF and/or optical input problems would ever be corrected by any means.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

What's technically possible is a giant step away from technically probable.

But they've done it with the mini-XLRs in the e38. Why don't you just find one of those? (I've already sold mine.)

But a recent reply from Exasound gave no indication that this DAC's SPDIF and/or optical input problems would ever be corrected by any means.

I rarely use those inputs but they work flawlessly. I think you are looking for excuses.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello @dped90,

Have you read my post #284 and visited my project thread?
You can find my latest system configuration/setup using OKTO DAC8PRO here on my thread.
Please find here (on my thread) and here (remote independent thread post) the Hyperlink Index of my multichannel multi-amplifier project.

 

[dped90]

But they've done it with the mini-XLRs in the e38. Why don't you just find one of those? (I've already sold mine.)
I rarely use those inputs but they work flawlessly. I think you are looking for excuses.

I believe it's because George at Exasound said that the e68 delivers better sound quality.

Again, regarding the other inputs on the e68, it was George who told me that they don't compare favorably with the USB input. Evidently, your e38 didn't have that problem,
and there's apparently no fix forthcoming for the e68. About as valid an excuse as there is, I'd say, since it's all what I was told by brand.

 

[dped90]

Hello @dped90,

Have you read my post #284 and visited my project thread?
You can find my latest system configuration/setup using OKTO DAC8PRO here on my thread.
Please find here (on my thread) and here (remote independent thread post) the Hyperlink Index of my multichannel multi-amplifier project.

Thanks, I will check it out.