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Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup
- Thread starter B&WTube
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Just my opinion but I think the Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen mentioned a few posts earlier is a better choice than the DIYINHK at a similar price point in almost all cases. Measured performance is similar but with the Focusrite you have way more input functionality (USB, SPDIF, ADAT and analog), balanced outputs, a completed case and way more benign turn on/off pop (DIYINHK actually blew a woofer in one of my test speakers). Only reason I would consider DIYINHK is if I absolutely needed a smaller form factor.
Michael
Can't use the USB input for PC/Mac/Linux USB input , correct?
That would be really great if you could. I see it comes with IR remote control as an option.
That is correct, no USB input, USB is only used for control. DDRC-88D is definitely a nice option if you want multichannel Dirac.
Michael
There are tons of demand for surround. Every new car has it. Now that Apple just added spatial audio support to phones, all Carplay systems will support it soon enough.
You could feed it through a U-DIO8. I'm sure they thought of packaging them together into one product but you'd just lose additional flexibility for almost no cost savings.
JRS
Major Contributor
I want to pose the question here, even though it has probably been asked and answered a dozen times elsewhere: Is it impossible to put together a near SOTA system using a HTPC? In my case near SOTA (for now) would be 8 channels of audio driving tri-amped full range mains plus 2 SW's. I'm planning on using a PC for streaming and convolution, and was looking at one of the EVGA int cards with damn good specs and which uses a second PCI back board so that all the outputs are on the two plates.
Unavailable at the moment, but could likely find one on EBAY and with second back board be about $350.
The published specs are stellar, I am not sure how much of that would be compromised using an off the shelf NUC with a large SSD for all my audio files--and should I look for a better power supply than stock?.
But the advantage is that everything would be done in one box: the streaming (probably Amazon and Spotify along with Internet Radio for now), setting up the DSP filters in Audiolense, and using whatever convolver is inexpensive and bullet proof stable. Sure balanced outs be nice, but I'm hoping that I can set this up so that fan noise is not a factor, and the amps will be close by to the PC. I am also assuming that if the computer is across the room I can set up a tablet as a streaming interface and volume control.
I am sort of at wits end with the dozens of ways of doing this and trying to find a way forward that is better spec wise and w/o the taps and other limitations of a miniDSP device.
Unavailable at the moment, but could likely find one on EBAY and with second back board be about $350.
The published specs are stellar, I am not sure how much of that would be compromised using an off the shelf NUC with a large SSD for all my audio files--and should I look for a better power supply than stock?.
But the advantage is that everything would be done in one box: the streaming (probably Amazon and Spotify along with Internet Radio for now), setting up the DSP filters in Audiolense, and using whatever convolver is inexpensive and bullet proof stable. Sure balanced outs be nice, but I'm hoping that I can set this up so that fan noise is not a factor, and the amps will be close by to the PC. I am also assuming that if the computer is across the room I can set up a tablet as a streaming interface and volume control.
I am sort of at wits end with the dozens of ways of doing this and trying to find a way forward that is better spec wise and w/o the taps and other limitations of a miniDSP device.
Amir reviewed it -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...u-audio-pro-review-internal-sound-card.19728/
Not SOTA and nowhere near the 123 dB dynamic range spec but overall not bad. Noise is just a bit worse than the Ultralite Mk5 but distortion is significantly worse. I think noise is the more important of the two so I’ll take low noise with higher distortion any day. It also looks like some op amp rolling can improve the distortion. Limited output voltage is a bit disappointing and I personally wouldn’t touch a DAC with unbalanced outputs (especially connected to a computer) but YMMV. I am completely unfamiliar with PCs these days but seems like you wouldn’t be able to fit it in a smaller form factor HTPC.
I say give it a try, worse case you need to switch to a USB DAC.
Michael
Not SOTA and nowhere near the 123 dB dynamic range spec but overall not bad. Noise is just a bit worse than the Ultralite Mk5 but distortion is significantly worse. I think noise is the more important of the two so I’ll take low noise with higher distortion any day. It also looks like some op amp rolling can improve the distortion. Limited output voltage is a bit disappointing and I personally wouldn’t touch a DAC with unbalanced outputs (especially connected to a computer) but YMMV. I am completely unfamiliar with PCs these days but seems like you wouldn’t be able to fit it in a smaller form factor HTPC.
I say give it a try, worse case you need to switch to a USB DAC.
Michael
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Surprised with all the MOTU talk in this thread, no one has mentioned the AO24? I did find some 3rd party measurements at one point, they weren't impressive but in-line w MOTU's published spec so at least you know what you're getting (looking at you, manufacturers with specs like "THD 0.05% at normal listening levels")
Also, I briefly tested out Mac's Aggregate Device and was happy with the result. I beat it up a bit, mostly as a curiosity, by running a Meizu non-Pro and Topping D10 via USB plus a Hidizs S8 via USB over Ethernet server attached via power line over Ethernet and I couldn't hear any sync issues playing back a stereo source through all simultaneously.
support.apple.com
Obviously a slightly higher cost barrier, but for this use case you can easily go back 2-3 generations and get some used/refurb with a limited warranty.
Also, I briefly tested out Mac's Aggregate Device and was happy with the result. I beat it up a bit, mostly as a curiosity, by running a Meizu non-Pro and Topping D10 via USB plus a Hidizs S8 via USB over Ethernet server attached via power line over Ethernet and I couldn't hear any sync issues playing back a stereo source through all simultaneously.
Create an Aggregate Device to combine multiple audio devices - Apple Support
With an Aggregate Device, you can use audio inputs and outputs from different devices at the same time with Logic Pro, GarageBand, MainStage, and most other Core Audio-compliant applications.
Obviously a slightly higher cost barrier, but for this use case you can easily go back 2-3 generations and get some used/refurb with a limited warranty.
The 24Ao looks to be a pretty good option. In my experience MOTU's specs are usually pretty accurate.
They specify 123 db(A) dynamic range at 20 dBu (7.75 V) output. Assuming a relatively flat noise distribution that 123 dB(A) would be about 120 dB unweighted. Knocking it down for more apples to apples comparison I would expect about 114 dB dynamic range at 4 V and 108 dB dynamic range at 2 V. They spec THD+N of -110 dB at -1 dBFS (6.9 V output), I would guess this might improve a bit if you measured at 4 V due to reduced distortion but you are never going to get better than 114 dB due to noise.
So all in all analog performance is just a step behind the Ultralite Mk5 and of course the price is higher. I would be worried that there might be issues with Linux due to the number of output channels but that is an issue specific to us using a RPi for DSP.
I have not had good luck with the aggregate device functionality with my Mac. I tried connecting 2 identical DACs (Schiit Modius) and measured the outputs and they were NOT in sync. Definitely did not seem acceptable for DIY active speaker applications. Maybe other DACs work better but at a minimum I would want to make sure that I had the ability to measure timing differences between the DACs to verify they are synced.
Michael
They specify 123 db(A) dynamic range at 20 dBu (7.75 V) output. Assuming a relatively flat noise distribution that 123 dB(A) would be about 120 dB unweighted. Knocking it down for more apples to apples comparison I would expect about 114 dB dynamic range at 4 V and 108 dB dynamic range at 2 V. They spec THD+N of -110 dB at -1 dBFS (6.9 V output), I would guess this might improve a bit if you measured at 4 V due to reduced distortion but you are never going to get better than 114 dB due to noise.
So all in all analog performance is just a step behind the Ultralite Mk5 and of course the price is higher. I would be worried that there might be issues with Linux due to the number of output channels but that is an issue specific to us using a RPi for DSP.
I have not had good luck with the aggregate device functionality with my Mac. I tried connecting 2 identical DACs (Schiit Modius) and measured the outputs and they were NOT in sync. Definitely did not seem acceptable for DIY active speaker applications. Maybe other DACs work better but at a minimum I would want to make sure that I had the ability to measure timing differences between the DACs to verify they are synced.
Michael
One comment I need to add to the discussion around the Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen is that the noise floor is quite high. I noted hiss when listening but this was with my LXmini setup which is not very sensitive. I made some measurements in this thread and the noise is worse than a miniDSP 2X4HD. With more sensitive speakers I imagine hiss is quite bad.
Michael
somebodyelse
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I had missed the AO24 - it's certainly got potential, particularly for Mac and Windows users. Other Motu AVB models have had a few problems with linux compatibility, varying with firmware version, which is why I was pleasantly surprised with reports that the Ultralite-mk5 works without problems. Notably the 8A and Ultralite AVB have suffered from audio meant for one channel suddenly appearing on a different channel when using USB - not ideal when it's being used as an active crossover! Sending audio to it over the network via AVB seemed to me more reliable last time I looked at the reports, but that's only possible if you've got a compatible network port which the Pi and many PCs don't.
JRS
Major Contributor
Fair enough, and god my brain is gone--reading that review a bit back is what made me think along those lines
. Just frustrated with the issue beneath the whole content of this thread, to wit, why isn't there a high quality product intended for this (my) market. Thanks for the advice--it may be tossing money better spent on a MOTU or Focusrite. There's an owner of each on this very thread so at least I have a place to turn for help. 
All we need is @MC_RME to add IR remote control to one of their multichannel interfaces and it's game over in the search.
I was a bit sad the recently Fireface UCX II didn't include IR remote for volume control.
Or UFX II for 8 channels.
The need for expensive and hard to get Okto DAC8 or exasound would vanish (both their multichannel DACs come with IR remote for volume).
I was a bit sad the recently Fireface UCX II didn't include IR remote for volume control.
Or UFX II for 8 channels.
The need for expensive and hard to get Okto DAC8 or exasound would vanish (both their multichannel DACs come with IR remote for volume).
somebodyelse
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The UCX II and UFX II can both be connected directly to the ARC remote as I understand it. If RME are interested in this market segment they could make a dongle that uses the same protocol but uses an IR sensor and remote rather than the physical controls. Alternatively if the interface specs are published (or someone does some reverse engineering) then DIY is an option.
Yes but who wants a wired remote 5 meters back from the speakers?
Hence my comments about IR remote (like exasound, Okto).
Yes would be a fantastic accessory.
RME ADI-2 PRO latest firmware update allow remote control to adjust volume of the 4 balanced outputs (including 2 x headphone outs).
So if 4 channels is all you need, great solution.
We meed an 8 channel solution from RME though.
So if 4 channels is all you need, great solution.
We meed an 8 channel solution from RME though.
somebodyelse
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I wasn't suggesting you use it as a wired remote. I was pointing out that the interfaces already have a port that can be used to control volume, so they don't need to change anything on the interfaces for them to work with the IR remote receiver dongle I was proposing.
