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Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup

dualazmak

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It has an ESS ES9026PRO, I actually assume it must have 2 ES9026PROs as it has more than 8 channels of analog output.
.....

Thank you, understood well. For more than 8 channels of analog out, yes, we need two ESS DAC chips, just like Danville Signal is planning for their possible dspNexus 2/16 as I wrote here. I am very much curious how MOTU UltraLite mk5 handle/process 10-Ch (plus one independent headphone out?) using single ES9026PRO... Is there another DAC chip hidden somewhere??

Since I stick to doing digital XO/EQ upstream within PC and will mainly use MOTU UltraLite mk5 as 10-Ch pure multichannel DAC through single USB cable connection from PC, 10-Ch sync analog out in 96 kHz 24 bit (this means up to 48 kHz in stereo) should be just fine for me, even it can go up to 192 kHz 24 bit.

To be honest I do not fully understand what happens to the headphone output at 176.4 / 192 kHz. The headphone output is still functional at 176.4 / 192 kHz but it no longer appears as an independent output channel (must mirror another output).

Well, I found this message in the User Guide;
WS002556.JPG

I understand and assume that, in default setting, Headphone Out would be mirror of main outs (Ch1+Ch2), but you may allocate it as independent in somewhere in the operation software. In any way, this will not be an issue for me...
 

mdsimon2

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18i20 arrived today, so far it has been surprisingly plug and play. Had to install Focusrite Control on my Mac to set up signal routing but after that it was plug and play with my RPi4 + Ubuntu + CamillaDSP setup (listening to it right now).

Made a quick full scale 1 kHz measurement using a MOTU M4 as an ADC and confirmed the -100 dB THD+N spec, see below.

Screen Shot 2021-11-03 at 12.45.47 PM.png


Still lots more testing to come but so far very promising.

Michael
 

ad_fletch

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Does anyone know of a good CamillaDSP tutorial, preferably with visuals or even video? Still can't find a Motu M4 anywhere, but would like to have a play anyway in case I get one one day....
 

mdsimon2

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Not sure if you are looking for installation instructions or configuration file help or both. I do not know of any videos but the CamillaDSP github is really good.


There is also a good step by step tutorial for setting up a 2 way crossover.


There are a few threads talking about setup of the M4 specifically.



The diyaudio thread is also very active and has tons of good info.


I've found that once you get the basic setup in place it is very easy to make changes to the configuration file. Although I have the GUI installed I pretty much make all of my changes directly in the configuration file. You can certainly use the GUI to make changes as well if that is easier for you.

Michael
 

mdsimon2

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18i20 arrived today, so far it has been surprisingly plug and play. Had to install Focusrite Control on my Mac to set up signal routing but after that it was plug and play with my RPi4 + Ubuntu + CamillaDSP setup (listening to it right now).

Made a quick full scale 1 kHz measurement using a MOTU M4 as an ADC and confirmed the -100 dB THD+N spec, see below.



Still lots more testing to come but so far very promising.

Michael

Have done quite a bit more testing and listening, the Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen is definitely a good option for RPi based active setups using CamillaDSP. As mentioned previously it works very well with Ubuntu Server 21.10. I did set up a very basic channel routing in another computer prior to using on Linux. I hear that more recent Linux kernels (5.13+) have a built in mixer that will allow for channel assignment in Linux but I have not tested that.

I made some basic measurements with my Ultralite Mk5 as an ADC and although performance is not SOTA but acceptable. In the following measurements I compare the Ultralite Mk5 and the 18i20 2nd gen. All measurements are done using 96 kHz input/output sample rates. In general all channels had similar performance (within 1-2 dB). I should note that the Ultralite Mk5 is not an AP so I would not take these numbers as absolutes but more as a relative comparison. For example Amir measured the Ultralite Mk5 SINAD at -113 dB at 4 V but I can only get -105 dB as a result of ADC noise limitations.

18i20, -102.5 dB THD+N at 1 kHz at full scale output, 4.86 V, 20 Hz to 22000 Hz
FR 1 kHz 4.86V.png


Ultralite Mk5, -106.6 dB THD+N at 1 kHz at 4.86 V, 20 Hz to 22000 Hz
UL 1 kHz 4.86V.png


18i20, -101.2 dB THD+N at 1 kHz at 4 V, 20 Hz to 22000 Hz
FR 1 kHz 4V.png


Ultralite Mk5, -105.3 dB THD+N at 1 kHz at 4 V, 20 Hz to 22000 Hz
UL 1 kHz 4V.png


18i20, 30.1 uV residual noise, 20 Hz to 22000 Hz
FR Noise.png


Ultralite Mk5, 19.1 uV residual noise, 20 Hz to 22000 Hz
UL Noise.png


18i20, -100.4 dB IMD, 60 Hz + 7000 Hz at 3.9V
FR SMPTE 3.9V.png


Ultralite Mk5, -112.8 dB IMD, 60 Hz + 7000 Hz at 3.9V
UL SMPTE 3.9V.png


18i20, -102.3 dB IMD, 250 Hz + 8000 Hz at 3.9V
FR DIN 3.9V.png


Ultralite Mk5, -110.8 dB IMD, 250 Hz + 8000 Hz at 3.9V
UL DIN 3.9V.png


18i20, -85.2 dB IMD, 19000 Hz + 20000 Hz at 3.3 V
FR CCIF 3.3V.png


Ultralite Mk5, -111.5 dB IMD, 19000 Hz + 20000 Hz at 3.3V
UL CCIF 3.3V.png


18i20, THD vs Level, 1 kHz, 20 Hz to 22000 Hz
FR 1 kHz level step THD.png


Ultralite Mk5, THD vs Level, 1 kHz, 20 Hz to 22000 Hz
UL 1 kHz level step THD.png


THD vs frequency, 4 V, 48000 Hz bandwidth
FR - UL 4 V freq step THD.png


Frequency response at 4 V
FR - UL Freq Resp.png


Ultralite Mk5 is clearly quite a bit better than the 18i20 in terms of noise and distortion. Noise performance of the 18i20 is still acceptable for near field but there is a very slight hiss. It is not an audible concern but the 18i20 clearly has some noise shaping going on and you can see the residual noise rise above 25 kHz.

When restarting the RPi with the 18i20 connected there are a few ticks / pops that are not terribly loud but a bit annoying, Ultralite Mk5 does not have any such noises. The 18i20 ticks / pops can be avoided by implementing a trigger with a Bobwire DAT1 so that the amps stay off until the 18i20 receives a signal. Using the Bobwire with the 18i20 is a bit more difficult as it only has ADAT output so a SPDIF to TOSLINK converter is needed, the Ultralite Mk5 can switch between ADAT and TOSLINK so no need for a converter.

Both the Ultralite Mk5 and the 18i20 have a volume knob that can control all output channels, I prefer the 18i20 knob as it has great feel and you can visually see the volume position from the knob. With the Ultralite Mk5 it will only show volume when you turn the knob.

The Ultralite Mk5 has output meters which you may find cool or annoying, the 18i20 will show no level as the meters on the front panel are only for the input levels.

Overall I think the Ultralite Mk5 is the way to go if you can spare the extra $250. The form factor is much smaller, it has better input/output options (ADAT / TOSLINK), better analog performance and no weird tick / pops. However as a budget 10 channel DAC the Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen is very hard to beat.

Michael
 
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dualazmak

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I really appreciate having your intensive measurements/evaluations of FOCUSRITE Scarlett 18i20 2nd Gen and MOTU UltraLite Mk5!

Now, in Japan, we can get 18i20 around JPYen 54,990 inclusive of 10% consumption tax;
https://www.amazon.co.jp/Focusrite-フォーカスライト-オーディオインターフェイス-Scarlett-【国内正規品】/dp/B01E6T54KQ?th=1

and MOTU UltraLite MK5 around JPYen 84,700 inclusive of 10% consumption tax;
https://www.soundhouse.co.jp/products/detail/item/291119/

both from domestic official dealers with warranty (and hopefully with good services if needed).

If possible, may I ask about the DAC chip/processor in Focusrite 18i20?
And, do you assume how 18i20 realizes 10-Ch sync processing with that DAC chip/processor?
 
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mdsimon2

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Locally in Aus the gen3 18i20 and Motu ultralite mk5 are essentially same price
It is the same in the US, 18i20 3rd gen is $550, Mk5 is $595. 18i20 2nd gen is quite a bit cheaper at $350 direct from Focusrite but I have a feeling that they are just clearing out some old stock and will not be available for much longer.

The interesting thing is that in terms of D/A THD+N the 3rd gen is spec'd slightly worse than the 2nd gen (-94 dB vs -100 dB).

Michael
 

dualazmak

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And 3rd gen supports sync 8-Ch simultaneously, while 2nd gen supports sync 10-Ch, right?
I would like to know the mechanism with the DAC chip(s) in 2nd gen enabling sync 10-Ch out...
 

mdsimon2

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And 3rd gen supports sync 8-Ch simultaneously, while 2nd gen supports sync 10-Ch, right?
I would like to know the mechanism with the DAC chip(s) in 2nd gen enabling sync 10-Ch out...

Both the 2nd gen and 3rd gen have 10 channel output. I did do some testing and at least with USB input all 10 channels were perfectly synced. I do not have enough knowledge / experience to understand how the channels are sync'd but from the 1st gen teardown I posted earlier it seems like the 18i20 uses multiple stereo DAC ICs which is different from the Ultralite Mk5 which has at least one ES9026pro 8 channel DAC IC.

Michael
 

dualazmak

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Thank you indeed for your clarification and correcting my misunderstanding. It is very nice to hear that 3rd gen also supports sync 10-Ch. Yes, we can see 10 TRS balance out on the backside of 3rd gen also;
WS002568.JPG


I also assume that "18i20 uses multiple stereo DAC ICs" as you pointed, with common clock IC. Would you please look inside to confirm this, and let me (us) know the name of DAC IC(s), only if possible?

Then what would be the mechanism in MOTU Ultralite Mk5 which supports sync 10-Ch, not sync 8-Ch, with single ES9026pro DAC IC??
 
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mdsimon2

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Thank you indeed for your clarification and correcting my misunderstanding. It is very nice to hear that 3rd gen also supports sync 10-Ch.

I also assume that "18i20 uses multiple stereo DAC ICs" as you pointed, with common clock IC. Would you please look inside to confirm this, only if possible?

Then what would be the mechanism in MOTU Ultralite Mk5 which supports sync 10-Ch, not sync 8Ch, with single ES9026pro DAC IC??

I will open them both up this weekend and post some pictures.

Michael
 

ad_fletch

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Has anyone tried Audient Evo 8 for a 4-channel DAC? I like the top-mounted volume control, and specs look decent, but searching on here I haven't found any measurements or even impressions....
 

mdsimon2

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mdsimon2

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Before I started taking things apart I figured I should at least google and see if there were any teardowns available. I did find one for the Ultralite Mk5 and it confirms that it has two ES9026pro DAC ICs.


Michael

And actually found one of the 18i20 2nd gen which confirms that it is very similar to the 1st gen teardown I posted earlier, it uses the same CS4272 (x4) + CS4392 DAC ICs.


Michael
 

dualazmak

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Again, really thank you for these nice info on DAC ICs in Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 and Motu UltraLite Mk5. I can now feel very much relaxed about their orthodox handling and utilization of multiple DAC ICs with common clock IC, and also relieved that they Ultralite Mk5 have has enough and stable DAC process capabilities even up to sync 16-Ch operation.

As I have been using Oppo Sonica DAC and Okto DAC8PRO, my preference would be UltraLite Mk5 in terms of total sound quality, I assume, in case if I would decide purchasing either of them.

In any way, your intensive and continuing info sharing is really valuable not only for me but also many people visiting this thread, I believe.
 
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jtatknox

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8 channel ground loop isolate DAC w/ Khadas Tone Boards. 12V trigger in.
IMG_3500.png
 

jtatknox

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They won't be synced if you use 4 separate sources, but if the SPDIF signals have the same master clock at the source, they will be synced. In my case, I am using an 4 out (8 channel) SPDIF source so it's fine. It probably wouldn't work at all w/ USB inputs unless you messed around with the I2S extender and added a separate DAC board with all the necessary noise rejection that comes along w/ it.

I think a solution like this is about 1/2 the price of the Okto DAC (although will be less performant) and will do well with standalone DSP. For PC-based DSP with multichannel USB output, I like a lot of the solutions proposed here.
 
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