Why aren't we pushing for more 4-8 channel DACS for a quality Stereo setup

[dualazmak]

Almost all of the parameters in EKIO can be adjusted on the fly, I mean while actually listening to the music.

Of course we should be careful enough in protecting our treasure SP drivers; I insert protection capacitors for Be-SQs, Be-TWs and metal horn STs.

I confirmed that these protection capacitors have little (or no) audible Fq effect as shared here.

 

[JRS]

Almost all of the parameters in EKIO can be adjusted on the fly, I mean while actually listening to the music.

Of course we should be careful enough in protecting our treasure SP drivers; I insert protection capacitors for Be-SQs, Be-TWs and metal horn STs.

I confirmed that these protection capacitors has little (or no) audible Fq effect as shared here.

Very well thank you and will PM you, if I have further questions.

 

[NTK]

I do have a question for you--if I wished to have a 4'th order say Butterworth low pass filter, where do I get help?

If your question is how to calculate the biquad coefficients, here are my understandings.

You can go to this page in miniDSP's website. Scroll down to "Where to start?" and download the biquad filter spreadhseet.

Advanced Biquad Programming

Flexibility really matters when it comes to innovative speaker design. As DIYers and speaker designers ourselves, we came to realize that miniDSP platforms could be used for both basic and advanced digital signal processing applications. While textbook filter implementation like Butterworth...

www.minidsp.com

I'll use your example of a 4th order Butterworth low pass filter and EKIO's example coefficients in manual page 16 (low pass Butterworth, 24 dB/oct = 4th order, 1433 Hz, fs = 44100 Hz).

http://downloads.lupisoft.com/ekio/EKIO_user_manual.pdf

Going to Analog Device's Linear Circuit Design Handbook, 2008, Butterworth design table (chapter 8, fig. 8.26, page 8.42).

Linear Circuit Design Handbook, 2008 | Education | Analog Devices

Linear Circuit Design Handbook, Edited by Hank Zumbahlen, Published by Newnes/Elsevier, 2008, ISBN-978-0-7506-8703-4 (Also published as Basic Linear Design, Analog Devices, 2007, ISBN-0-916550-28-1).Fundamentals and applications of data acquisition components. Contains much of the material...

www.analog.com

You can see that to create a 4th order Butterworth filter, you need to cascade two second order sections (biquads), first one with Q = 0.5412, second with Q = 1.3065.

Go to the miniDSP spreadsheet, the LPF tab, plug in the values first for section 1, then for section 2. You can see that the biquad coefficients from the miniDSP spreadsheet match the example in the EKIO manual, with the exception that the signs of a1 & a2 are reversed. The is an option in EKIO to reverse those signs to match the miniDSP numbers. "Status" in the miniDSP spreadsheet will tell you whether the filter is stable or not.

 

[dualazmak]

Very well thank you and will PM you, if I have further questions.

You may have a little bit of frustration/confusion, only at first time of your test, in understanding I/O in EKIO using ASIO4ALL. Please refer to my specific post here (post #297) for such I/O routing for JRiver (or Roon) into EKIO.

 

[mdsimon2]

Hello, I want to know about the application scenarios of multi-channel DACs and are there any special requirements? I personally have a benchmark DAC2008, a very good old DAC (using TDA1547), it only has 4 AES inputs and 8 Analog outputs, no other functions, technically, we can indeed do 8-channel DAC, according to our current understanding of ES9038PRO, we can achieve 8ch, each channel can reach -123dB (@5Vrms)

IMHO the minimum requirements are...

-8 channel output
-class compliant USB input, should work with linux
-volume knob
-IR volume control
-volume display

IR volume control and volume display are the missing features on many pro audio interfaces. To me the Okto DAC8 pro has all the features I would ever want, although I think the 4x AES inputs are unnecessary for the applications being discussed in this thread. A trigger output is nice to have.

Michael

 

[dualazmak]

IMHO the minimum requirements are...

-8 channel output
-class compliant USB input, should work with linux
-volume knob
-IR volume control
-volume display

IR volume control and volume display are the missing features on many pro audio interfaces. To me the Okto DAC8 pro has all the features I would ever want, although I think the 4x AES inputs are unnecessary for the applications being discussed in this thread. A trigger output is nice to have.

Michael

Nice, thank you, and fully agree with you.

From my personal perspectives, let me add just one additional requirement (maybe not critical for many people, though);

- sync mechanism between the two units, and ASIO driver to recognize 16 channels independently through single or dual USB cable.

 

[HammerSandwich]

All of the above, plus:
- balanced outputs, with both legs driven. TRS is fine but XLR better. Also okay if this is a "Pro" model feature for +$100.
- 2-3 settings for maximum output level, preferably independent per channel. (IOW, if my amp clips at 1-2Vrms, I don't want 5Vrms & 12+dB digital attenuation.) Full scale = 1.25V | 2.5V | 5V would be great with >99% of amps. I'm okay with DIP switches for this.
- Raspberry Pi 4B as validated & supported host. I understand that you can't test with every PC & OS version available, but RPi is the default choice for software DSP at a low price.

Stretch request:
- Inputs to PC. Analog stereo + Toslink would add a lot of flexibility.

 

[dualazmak]

Yes, I agree. In my above post, I was forgetting the indispensable point of "XLR balanced analog OUT in all of the 8-Ch".

 

[mdsimon2]

Bought a Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen for $350 shipped this morning directly from Focusrite. Has 10 channels of output and a large range of inputs.

Scarlett 18i20

Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 is the 4th generation of industry-leading USB Audio interfaces; including RedNet converters and eight 4th Gen Scarlett mic preamps.

store.focusrite.com

Not expecting world beating performance but hoping for competent (SINAD ~100 dB). Seems like they can be used with linux but it may take some work.

Michael

 

[JRS]

Bought a Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen for $350 shipped this morning directly from Focusrite. Has 10 channels of output and a large range of inputs.

Scarlett 18i20

Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 is the 4th generation of industry-leading USB Audio interfaces; including RedNet converters and eight 4th Gen Scarlett mic preamps.

store.focusrite.com

Not expecting world beating performance but hoping for competent (SINAD ~100 dB). Seems like they can be used with linux but it may take some work.

Michael

I was wondering about those--please let us know, Amazon reviews were great.

I am curious--can one buy a playback license for Dolby Atmos on a PC, or is only available for Apple? I really would rather not buy a stand alone processor if I could do it all on a computer, that is if it's at all feasible to obtain Trinnov type performance, say the equivalent of their studio 8 channel product which retails for 8k? Seems like a future proof solution with the ability to use different flavors of encoding--or am I deluded in thinking this is even possible?

 

[Lambda]

I am curious--can one buy a playback license for Dolby Atmos on a PC, or is only available for Apple?

Dolby Atmos - What Hardware And Software Do You Need | Production Expert

We are going to explore the minimum requirements for both hardware and software, to be able to mix in Dolby Atmos. We look at which DAWs you can use, what monitoring system, and what additional software you will need.

www.pro-tools-expert.com

 

[JRS]

Dolby Atmos - What Hardware And Software Do You Need | Production Expert

We are going to explore the minimum requirements for both hardware and software, to be able to mix in Dolby Atmos. We look at which DAWs you can use, what monitoring system, and what additional software you will need.

www.pro-tools-expert.com

Thanks--299. isn't bad. I believe Dirac is 500 for a stand alone license.

 

[dualazmak]

Bought a Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen for $350 shipped this morning directly from Focusrite. Has 10 channels of output and a large range of inputs.

Scarlett 18i20

Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 is the 4th generation of industry-leading USB Audio interfaces; including RedNet converters and eight 4th Gen Scarlett mic preamps.

store.focusrite.com

Not expecting world beating performance but hoping for competent (SINAD ~100 dB). Seems like they can be used with linux but it may take some work.

Michael

Thank you for the info on Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen.

looks really interesting for me too, since the downloaded user manual said that it supports 10-Ch sync DAC processing all up to 192 kHz (supporting 10-Ch TRS balanced out; we can use TRS-XLR cables feeding analog signal into XLR-capable amps). I hope and believe up to 192 kHz in 24 bit, right? (The spec sheet on the user manual does not indicate the max bitrate...)

I also do hope and believe that, once the proper Focusrite ASIO driver is installed, all the Windows ASIO compatible audio software including JRiver, Roon, ASIO4ALL (and EKIO through ASIO4ALL) can recognize the 10-Ch ASIO USB output routes into Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen, even without installing any of the other Focusrite software.

If possible, you would please let us/me know the DAC chip(s) (and the clock chip) in the Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen.

I also would highly appreciate if I could know/receive any of the further web links and/or your own measurement data on the DAC performance of Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen.

 

[Lambda]

https://motu.com/de/products/gen5/ultralite-mk5/

dualazmak​

You might find the ultralite-mk5 interesting as well

 

[dualazmak]

https://motu.com/de/products/gen5/ultralite-mk5/

dualazmak​

You might find the ultralite-mk5 interesting as well

Thank you, I will soon look it intensively.

Just one quick question, please. The spec sheet for MOTU UltraLite mk5 shows "Sampling rates 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 kHz", and "Total audio I/O 8 in / 12 out (20 total) at 4x sample rates". Does these mean "Total audio I/O 8 in / 12 out (20 total) up to at 176.4 kHz and 192 kHz in 24 bit", right?

I could just find that MOTU UltraLite mk5 has one "ESS Sabre 32UltraDAC" (ES9038Q2M, ES9218PQ or ES9118EQ?) DAC processor in it.

 

[Lambda]

up to at 176.4 kHz and 192 kHz in 24 bit", right?

of cause 24Bit.

for comparison the m2 has a rated thd+n of -110dB and measured 110dB SINAD at ASR

Motu M2 Review (Audio Interface)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Motu M2 Audio Interface (DAC, ADC and headphone amplifier). It is on kind loan from a local member and costs US $179. I previously reviewed Motu M4 which is its larger brother. The M2 has the look of other Motu products: I like the color...

www.audiosciencereview.com

so they have earned some trust

 

[mdsimon2]

Thank you, I will soon look it intensively.

Just one quick question, please. The spec sheet for MOTU UltraLite mk5 shows "Sampling rates 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 kHz", and "Total audio I/O 8 in / 12 out (20 total) at 4x sample rates". Does these mean "Total audio I/O 8 in / 12 out (20 total) up to at 176.4 kHz and 192 kHz in 24 bit", right?

I could just find that MOTU UltraLite mk5 has one "ESS Sabre 32UltraDAC" (ES9038Q2M, ES9218PQ or ES9118EQ?) DAC processor in it.

It has an ESS ES9026PRO, I actually assume it must have 2 ES9026PROs as it has more than 8 channels of analog output.

It will always have 10 channels of analog output, what changes is that at higher sample rates the other output channel counts go down.

44.1 / 48 kHz - 24 bit
10 channel analog + 2 channel SPDIF + 8 channel ADAT + 2 channel headphone = 22

88.2 / 96 kHz - 24 bit
10 channel analog + 2 channel SPDIF + 4 channel ADAT + 2 channel headphone = 18

176.4 / 192 kHz - 24 bit
10 channel analog = 10

Input channels do something similar, it always has 2 channel mic input + 6 channel line input but the digital input channel counts go down with increased sample rate.

To be honest I do not fully understand what happens to the headphone output at 176.4 / 192 kHz. The headphone output is still functional at 176.4 / 192 kHz but it no longer appears as an independent output channel (must mirror another output).

Output of cat /proc/asound/UltraLitemk5/stream0 shown below for reference.

MOTU UltraLite-mk5 at usb-0000:01:00.0-1.4, high speed : USB Audio

Playback:
  Status: Stop
  Interface 1
    Altset 1
    Format: S24_3LE
    Channels: 22
    Endpoint: 0x02 (2 OUT) (ASYNC)
    Rates: 44100, 48000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 24
    Sync Endpoint: 0x83 (3 IN)
    Sync EP Interface: 2
    Sync EP Altset: 1
    Implicit Feedback Mode: Yes
  Interface 1
    Altset 2
    Format: S24_3LE
    Channels: 18
    Endpoint: 0x02 (2 OUT) (ASYNC)
    Rates: 88200, 96000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 24
    Sync Endpoint: 0x83 (3 IN)
    Sync EP Interface: 2
    Sync EP Altset: 2
    Implicit Feedback Mode: Yes
  Interface 1
    Altset 3
    Format: S24_3LE
    Channels: 10
    Endpoint: 0x02 (2 OUT) (ASYNC)
    Rates: 176400, 192000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 24
    Channel map: FL FR FC LFE RL RR FLC FRC RC SL
    Sync Endpoint: 0x83 (3 IN)
    Sync EP Interface: 2
    Sync EP Altset: 3
    Implicit Feedback Mode: Yes

Capture:
  Status: Stop
  Interface 2
    Altset 1
    Format: S24_3LE
    Channels: 20
    Endpoint: 0x83 (3 IN) (ASYNC)
    Rates: 44100, 48000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 24
  Interface 2
    Altset 2
    Format: S24_3LE
    Channels: 16
    Endpoint: 0x83 (3 IN) (ASYNC)
    Rates: 88200, 96000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 24
  Interface 2
    Altset 3
    Format: S24_3LE
    Channels: 10
    Endpoint: 0x83 (3 IN) (ASYNC)
    Rates: 176400, 192000
    Data packet interval: 125 us
    Bits: 24
    Channel map: FL FR FC LFE RL RR FLC FRC RC SL

Michael

 

[Lambda]

It will always have 10 channels of analog output, what changes is that at higher sample rates the other output channel counts go down.

So there is no way of having 192/24 at the SPDIF out?!

 

[mdsimon2]

Thank you for the info on Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen.

looks really interesting for me too, since the downloaded user manual said that it supports 10-Ch sync DAC processing all up to 192 kHz (supporting 10-Ch TRS balanced out; we can use TRS-XLR cables feeding analog signal into XLR-capable amps). I hope and believe up to 192 kHz in 24 bit, right? (The spec sheet on the user manual does not indicate the max bitrate...)

I also do hope and believe that, once the proper Focusrite ASIO driver is installed, all the Windows ASIO compatible audio software including JRiver, Roon, ASIO4ALL (and EKIO through ASIO4ALL) can recognize the 10-Ch ASIO USB output routes into Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen, even without installing any of the other Focusrite software.

If possible, you would please let us/me know the DAC chip(s) (and the clock chip) in the Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen.

I also would highly appreciate if I could know/receive any of the further web links and/or your own measurement data on the DAC performance of Focusrite 18i20 2nd gen.

I've heard that 1st and 2nd gen are similar in hardware, see below for a teardown of 1st gen which shows CS4272/CS4392 DAC ICs.

#41 Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 (1st gen) teardown & repair(?)

A local friend bought this slightly battle-scarred Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 off a buddy of his. The reported issue was some random / interm...

khronscave.blogspot.com

Again, not expecting SOTA performance but hopefully meeting the 0.001% (-100 dB) THD+N spec.

Michael

 

[mdsimon2]

So there is no way of having 192/24 at the SPDIF out?!

Not that I can see. SPDIF outputs completely disappear in both the MacOS Audio MIDI Setup and ALSA at 176.4 / 192 kHz. They also no longer appear in CueMix.

I always run it at 96 kHz as I do not see any reason to waste processing power on higher sample rates when a 96 kHz DSP sample rate effectively gets rid of high frequency warping in the audible band. That being said I DO use the TOSLINK output to feed a Bobwire DAT1 as a trigger output which is another reason to not use higher sample rates but I had not thought of this previously.

MIchael