Why aren't we bringing the equipment prices down with more published blind test demos?

[sigbergaudio]

In my opinion, everything is getting more expensive nowadays without audio discernible improvements and the public isn't doing enough to stop this trend.

I think that for speakers especially there should be more initiative, otherwise even the budget manufacturers will increase the prices up, just as these expensive manufacturers:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dynaudio-confidence-20-loudspeaker/ - 13000$/pair

Imagine the impact of multiple blind-tests using a 300-500$ bookshelf speakers and some EQ to match the sound of the Dynaudio and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference that doesn't justify the extra money.

For amplifiers and DACs the blind test comparison should be easier since they're supposed to color the sound less than speakers.

Bookshelf speaker that cost 500$ a pair, with a total of four drivers, will have drivers that cost 10-20$ per driver. Do you honestly think this is as good as it gets?

As a manufacturer I can share (as others have in the thread) that cost for a manufacturer has increased dramatically as well. And do you really want Europe and the US to stop manufacturing and production alltogether? Would you prefer everything was made in China?

Finally, a 500$ speaker and a 13,000$ speaker does not have the same target audience. If you are in the market for a 500$ speaker, it is very natural that you do not find a 13,000$ speaker to be a good value proposition. That is all well and fine. We are lucky that there are decent products in many different price brackets, so everyone can find something to suit their needs and budgets.

If you want to evaluate if the Dynaudio is a good product, it should be compared to other 13,000$ speakers, not a 500$ speaker.

 

[asteroth]

No, I have DIY speakers for around €4000 per pair, but these speakers would be even more expensive in the store than the Confidence 20.

But I know the Dynaudio Confidence 20 very well, as well as the Confidence 50.
And you have already heard the Confidence 20? And compared it with your crappy $500 bookshelves?
Then you can tell us for sure which crappy $500 bookshelves they are that, in your personal experience, can keep up with the Dynaudio Confidence 20, right?

This post just shows that you really have no idea about development, the effort involved and the costs.
You can't buy any part of the Dynaudio Confidence series anywhere, every part was developed by Dynaudio and Dynaudio would be absolutely stupid if they published any results of their development and research.

Have you heard of a thing called "patents"? We have it for around 600 years already. But I guess you missed it.

 

[asteroth]

Bookshelf speaker that cost 500$ a pair, with a total of four drivers, will have drivers that cost 10-20$ per driver. Do you honestly think this is as good as it gets?

As a manufacturer I can share (as others have in the thread) that cost for a manufacturer has increased dramatically as well. And do you really want Europe and the US to stop manufacturing and production alltogether? Would you prefer everything was made in China?

Finally, a 500$ speaker and a 13,000$ speaker does not have the same target audience. If you are in the market for a 500$ speaker, it is very natural that you do not find a 13,000$ speaker to be a good value proposition. That is all well and fine. We are lucky that there are decent products in many different price brackets, so everyone can find something to suit their needs and budgets.

If you want to evaluate if the Dynaudio is a good product, it should be compared to other 13,000$ speakers, not a 500$ speaker.

If your product is listed on the market, it can be evaluated in any way people want. Some people run their cars over them, just to show how solid they are.
People pay money for these things(sometimes copious amounts of money), they're not given for free.

I really don't see your point. The 500$ speaker doesn't also have a tweeter, a midwoofer, a cabinet, a finish, etc. ? Doesn't it also emit sound?

I feel like some of you are backing up the The Emperor's New Clothes...

 

[GXAlan]

Have you heard of a thing called "patents"? We have it for around 600 years already. But I guess you missed it.

There is no such thing as an international patent, and this is why companies such as SpaceX opt to keep technology as trade secrets.

From the speaker standpoint, it’s really hard to beat something like the JBL Series 3 for a dollar for dollar comparison. But just like some people like to eat dinner on a nice table instead of a cardboard that is equally functional, it’s OK to spend extra money for looks, exclusivity, service.

Many of us want the extra bit of performance for a lot more money. Performance can be audible performance, build quality, country of manufacture, etc.

 

[Waxx]

Prices don't go down that much in absolute numbers, but they go in value due to inflation. But building devices and running a company costs money, and the importers and resalers also need to earn money and have an overhead. What could reduced the prices is direct sales, but then you still got taxes (inport/sales tax).

I think prices are already very low for some quality devices. But if you expect a top-level system for a 100$/€, that won't happen. It's just not doable, even not diy. And those 13K bookshelfs are not necesairly better than a cheaper one, but the very cheap ones will probally not be that good as it takes money to make quality.

And there will always be a market for super expensive and super exclusive devices, a patek watch does not give you a more accurate timing than a casio, but still people are very eager to pay the ridiculous prices they go for, and there is even a waiting list for some models. That is because it's exclusive, well made and a shiny thing to show off how rich you are, not because the watch is a better watch than the 20$/€ Casio. Those super expensive hifi devices (we call them audiophool devices) are for that market, and sell for those reasons, not for objective quality differences.

 

[Holmz]

Not from the well known brands. These are increasing the prices.
I know that chinese are coming with lower prices and flawless performance, but the whole product is not flawless and even they realize that they can increase the price to maximize the profit instead of competing to sell at lowest possible price.

Do you have any idea how a business runs?
They usually make money, and even charities are set up to generate a profit.

For example, I have a SMSL DAC, flawless audio, not even the slightest hiss, but it heats up like crazy, I'm afraid that one day it could catch fire. Also, if I keep a mobile phone next to it, I get interference. Also whenever the audio signal from the computer stops or starts, I hear a slight pop/crack sound, and I cannot do anything from the driver. They should have mitigated this somehow.

OK - so flawless audio, pops and cracks, gets hot, something about a driver…
It does not sound like it is “without flaws.”

In my opinion,

Many others, like institutions with more pedigree, also have not noted inflation.
I do not think your observation is super insightful.

everything is getting more expensive nowadays without audio discernible improvements and the public isn't doing enough to stop this trend.

What is “The public” supposed to do?
People usually but groceries and fuel, electricity, etc.

I think that for speakers especially there should be more initiative, otherwise even the budget manufacturers will increase the prices up, just as these expensive manufacturers:
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dynaudio-confidence-20-loudspeaker/ - 13000$/pair

Imagine the impact of multiple blind-tests using a 300-500$ bookshelf speakers and some EQ to match the sound of the Dynaudio and not being able to distinguish them or getting a difference that doesn't justify the extra money.

Do you know, or can your cite, any of the arguments people use in their justifications?

For amplifiers and DACs the blind test comparison should be easier since they're supposed to color the sound less than speakers.

It sounds easy enough to make your own brand and slot into a segment of the market.

 

[Roland68]

Have you heard of a thing called "patents"? We have it for around 600 years already. But I guess you missed it.

I have no idea how this relates to this topic, but you don't have much to say about that either.

I own a few patents and have successfully registered several without a patent attorney. I also know a lot about what is patentable and what is not.
But with a patent you also have to disclose all relevant information and that is sometimes an extremely stupid strategy. There are millions of patentable technologies and production secrets that have not been patented for this reason.
And (almost) nobody knows about them.

 

[robh36062]

The prices were a good incentive to get me into DIY. Building speakers is a fun part of the hobby for me.

Rob : )

 

[Bjorn]

While it's great for customers, prices for electronics today have become too cheap. This could lead to a death of most western companies, and we woukd end up only with low cost Chinese and Asian brands for a time. The problem here is reliability and service.

As for speakera, well known brands generally cost way too much today IMO.

 

[rank]

The prices were a good incentive to get me into DIY. Building speakers is a fun part of the hobby for me.

Rob : )

So you can use loudspeakers they never buy because they are too expensive (several tens of dollars) !

 

[sigbergaudio]

If your product is listed on the market, it can be evaluated in any way people want. Some people run their cars over them, just to show how solid they are.
People pay money for these things(sometimes copious amounts of money), they're not given for free.

I really don't see your point. The 500$ speaker doesn't also have a tweeter, a midwoofer, a cabinet, a finish, etc. ? Doesn't it also emit sound?

I feel like some of you are backing up the The Emperor's New Clothes...

If "emit sound" is the bar to meet, I agree the 500$ speakers will do the job.

 

[JeremyFife]

I'm not sure about blind tests per se (in the context of this thread! I totally accept their value for listening tests).

The availability of good measurements, and the information to understand them - like this site - has dramatically reduced the cost of Hi-Fi for me - massively!

I'll eventually upgrade my speakers and if I can also upgrade the listening space (which needs a new house, not a cheap upgrade) I'll spend a lot more. Whatever price point I set my budget at I will be confident that I am getting good sonic value ... before ASR I would have expected more money to automatically mean better performance and I would have been WRONG.
I probably can't justify more than about £5k as a max though, so not in high-end territory but that will still get me something very nice indeed (and I'll have to think very hard indeed about spending that much - about understanding the improvement above something like Kef R3 + a pair of Subs, as an example).

We don't need manufacturers to change their pricing, we need consumers to change their behaviour so that poorly designed equipment is no longer sought after. The market will adapt to that pressure. Some people will still be uninformed and spend more than they need to, but that has always been the way.

 

[Pearljam5000]

$750K is the new standard for high end speakers lol

 

[Roland68]

Would be interesting to know how the Dynaudio price is assembled by development, production, marketing and distribution cost including the margin for the retailer. Compared the price Dynaudio with the well known and long time established brand T+A in Germany. There you get for less money speakers with more than two chassis and speakers which for sure can play deep bass louder than the Confidence 20. Dynaudio claimes that their small speaker is able to be as good as big speakers. I don't believe this. Sounds to me like on audio shows small speakers were presented with music which has almost no bass content like vocal with acoustic guitar but enriched with high pitched drums. So, what does T+A do different to Dynaudio?

I haven't dealt with T+A for years and their speakers have become much more expensive in the meantime.
But T+A speakers used to be something completely different. Standard chassis or minimally modified chassis from well-known manufacturers, development was done internally and externally, normal crossover components that can be bought, cheaper housings that are still good quality.
To put it bluntly, these speakers were like highly developed DIY speakers built completely from standard parts, + housing.
Today it seems to be much more individual, but also more expensive.

At Dynaudio it's the other way round. They have always been chassis manufacturers and have also offered DIY speakers and chassis. But in the mid-90s they increasingly focused on their high-quality speakers.
At Dynaudio the customer naturally also pays for the elaborate advertising, exhibition stands, the excellent sales, support and dealer network. In-house development departments, production facilities, storage areas, etc. are also a very expensive matter, but the manufacturer also retains control over everything. And of course the customer pays for that too.

But every customer is free to decide whether or not to spend €/$13,000 on a Confidence 20. Every customer is also free to compare the Confidence 20 with another loudspeaker, regardless of the price range.

Dynaudio is certainly one of the loudspeaker manufacturers that has high costs that the customer has to pay for. But otherwise this company would not exist and we wouldn't even be talking about the Confidence 20.

 

[SSS]

I haven't dealt with T+A for years and their speakers have become much more expensive in the meantime.
But T+A speakers used to be something completely different. Standard chassis or minimally modified chassis from well-known manufacturers, development was done internally and externally, normal crossover components that can be bought, cheaper housings that are still good quality.
To put it bluntly, these speakers were like highly developed DIY speakers built completely from standard parts, + housing.
Today it seems to be much more individual, but also more expensive.

At Dynaudio it's the other way round. They have always been chassis manufacturers and have also offered DIY speakers and chassis. But in the mid-90s they increasingly focused on their high-quality speakers.
At Dynaudio the customer naturally also pays for the elaborate advertising, exhibition stands, the excellent sales, support and dealer network. In-house development departments, production facilities, storage areas, etc. are also a very expensive matter, but the manufacturer also retains control over everything. And of course the customer pays for that too.

But every customer is free to decide whether or not to spend €/$13,000 on a Confidence 20. Every customer is also free to compare the Confidence 20 with another loudspeaker, regardless of the price range.

Dynaudio is certainly one of the loudspeaker manufacturers that has high costs that the customer has to pay for. But otherwise this company would not exist and we wouldn't even be talking about the Confidence 20.

This may all be true. But Dynaudio is majority owned by a Chinese company also in acustic devices. So it is not clear what item was made in Denmark or China which is not bad at all. Many great brands let their electronic items build in China. I am not sure whether it is really worthy to build everything within one and the same company? Specialized loudspeaker chassis manufacturers have a higher production volume and already the tools which will make a single chassis lower priced. If a complete automobile would be made by one development department and one factory building all parts including electrical and electronical ones the car had a rocket high price which I even can't imagine. So for me nothing is wrong with the T+A way to use modified outhouse chassis and get also excellent sounding loudspeakers.

 

[DearSX]

I went to a restaurant in Montreal called Noir where all the waiters are legally blind and you eat in the dark. Food was tasty, although I have no clue what I was eating. We should recruit these folks to review equipment and speakers, or at least lets review speakers in pitch darkness.

 

[Roland68]

This may all be true. But Dynaudio is majority owned by a Chinese company also in acustic devices. So it is not clear what item was made in Denmark or China which is not bad at all. Many great brands let their electronic items build in China. I am not sure whether it is really worthy to build everything within one and the same company? Specialized loudspeaker chassis manufacturers have a higher production volume and already the tools which will make a single chassis lower priced. If a complete automobile would be made by one development department and one factory building all parts including electrical and electronical ones the car had a rocket high price which I even can't imagine. So for me nothing is wrong with the T+A way to use modified outhouse chassis and get also excellent sounding loudspeakers.

I agree with you on all points, but in the end it is the manufacturer who decides how to do it. You should not forget that Dynaudio has always been a chassis producer.
You can produce the highest quality anywhere in the world, even in China, but it is hardly any cheaper.

But we are now far from the topic.
The basic problem seems to be that someone is bothered by how much certain Dynaudio loudspeakers cost and for some unknown reason he wants to change that.
It seems that he does not think that Dynaudio or the buyers are mature enough to make these decisions. That is telling, isn't it?

The same person apparently does not care that his $20, $50 or $100 jeans only cost the manufacturer $2-6, which is a much better calculation and profit margin than Dynaudio, and only causes marginal costs in development and other things. Not to mention how these prices are achieved in jeans production.
That is also telling.

 

[tmtomh]

In no particular order:

1. Production and distribution/shipping expenses are up.

2. Two to three years of inflation higher than it had been since before the advent of GUI computers, mass-market cell phones, and the internet have distorted people's perception of how much things cost now vs pre-2020 in real terms.

3. One need only peruse historical Stereophile and Absolute Sound reviews to see that super high-priced gear has been a part of the audiophile market for decades now.

4. Aside from items 1 and 2, the main cause of the growth of high-end boutique brands and the upmarket price moves of many other brands is the increasing global polarization of wealth and income that has created a small but ever-growing market for relatively small numbers of very high-priced, high-profit consumer goods, whether they be audio components, cars, boats, houses, art works, or almost anything else.

5. Selling rich people on fallacious claims of superior audio performance is in my view only a secondary effect of item 4. Craftsmanship, build quality, visual design, owner/designer/engineer reputation, and other factors are also usually attached to the marketing of such products, and audio myths are simply one part of a series of narratives that enables a tacit agreement between buyer and seller that leaves both with what they want (profit for the former, a good feeling about their purchase from the latter).

So fighting audio myths at a forum like this and expecting it to reduce the prices of high-end gear is like knocking one leg out from under each chair in a dining room and expecting that to cause the entire house to collapse.

 

[SSS]

I agree with you on all points, but in the end it is the manufacturer who decides how to do it. You should not forget that Dynaudio has always been a chassis producer.
You can produce the highest quality anywhere in the world, even in China, but it is hardly any cheaper.

But we are now far from the topic.
The basic problem seems to be that someone is bothered by how much certain Dynaudio loudspeakers cost and for some unknown reason he wants to change that.
It seems that he does not think that Dynaudio or the buyers are mature enough to make these decisions. That is telling, isn't it?

The same person apparently does not care that his $20, $50 or $100 jeans only cost the manufacturer $2-6, which is a much better calculation and profit margin than Dynaudio, and only causes marginal costs in development and other things. Not to mention how these prices are achieved in jeans production.
That is also telling.

It is agreed by myself to what you wrote. I am aware for instance that hi-hyped Nike shoes are cheap in production. It is the influence of heavy advertising. This also true for some other goods made cheap in far east and sold high priced in Europe. You are right, the initial topic went off the track.
By the way, what is your company producing?

 

[DearSX]

$750K is the new standard for high end speakers lol View attachment 382538View attachment 382539

I wish listening to some expensive, well measuring, reference level expensive speakers properly setup was an option for every one. So far at audio shows, non have really impressed me much, including Magico. I know from experience that a proper setup makes a night and day difference though.

Interesting how a 1 inch tweeter and 6" inch midrange is plenty for pairing with dual 11" midbass/woofers and 15" inch woofers in the Magico M9. I'm sure they are amazing speakers, I mean why not make them sound good if you're gonna charge that much.

I don't know if the flagship M9 should sound any better than the entry-level Magico A5 for anything below 100Db. It has 3 9" woofers after all.