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Why aren't cinemas targeting sub 20hz response?

echopraxia

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I agree, in my experienced with sealed Rythmiks. I would prefer 95 dB mains and 115 dB subs.
I think we both want 115db subs down to 10hz of course, but if we all got that then I suppose this thread would be moot and the problem would be solved by nature of having ideal capabilities in all respects (10hz, 115db) :D

It would be interesting to try some A/B tests to see what people subjectively prefer between the two compromises (SPL vs bass extension).
 

echopraxia

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sigbergaudio

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I agree, in my experience with sealed Rythmiks. I would prefer 95 dB mains and 115 dB subs. Vented also changes how we perceive the sound (more powerful at the same SPL).

Does it really? If vented is perceived as more powerful at the same SPL, the sound must be different somehow?
 

echopraxia

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Also on the topic of compromises/tradeoffs to minimize cost: For under $1k you can get the JBL 4641 + amp, which JBL claims is capable of 126db SPL with +-3db frequency response 25hz-100hz. Granted, I don't know if this means it will put out 123db at 25hz though, or if that is only possible at higher frequencies.

But yes, the JTR Captivator is amazing of course, even for the price. But the price is still quite 'premium' territory.
 

echopraxia

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It has to do with the tactile sensations. Rumble, vibrations, etc.
Yeah but what is it about a ported sub that would change those tactile sensations beyond what a SPL measurement mic picks up?
 

3ll3d00d

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Yeah but what is it about a ported sub that would change those tactile sensations beyond what a SPL measurement mic picks up?
Assorted threads on avsforum on this subject over the years, consensus there is increased particle velocity (for a given spl vs a sealed sub) is the root cause
 

Chromatischism

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Assorted threads on avsforum on this subject over the years, consensus there is increased particle velocity (for a given spl vs a sealed sub) is the root cause
I found a good post that debated that, but I had another thought: has anyone ever isolated the subwoofers to make sure that it's not vibrations transmitting through the floor?
 

stevenswall

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I'm looking at equipment from JBL Pro for small cinemas, and their 2x18" subwoofer naturally goes to 22hz at -10dB, and can achieve down to 22hz -3dB with external EQ.

I'm pretty sure a properly setup cinema with (enough of) these subwoofers give a pretty good experience. So why do we need subwoofers that go deeper at home?

...So would it for instance be better to work on achieving higher SPL between ~20-30hz and worry less below 20hz?

If something is used for cinema, sound reinforcement, or "professional" use by a DJ, the focus seems to be getting it as loud as possible. To me that means everything else is sacrificed, including people's hearing, and the engineers should find other jobs.

TL;DR: A cinema experience isn't something to aspire to or look at for reference unless loudness is your primary goal and you're willing to sacrifice almost everything else for it.

Longer version:
For many people and cinemas though, more SPL is all they want/need, and the more they get, the more they need, and they enjoy living out that cycle.

I don't "need" sub-woofers that go deeper at home, many just like them, personally I like the idea of something being much better than a theater which is why I have a 77" OLED that I sit fairly close to after trying a few projectors, because the movie theater is focused on big and loud, and I want quality. Hopefully RGB laser projectors come down in cost or MicroLED TVs around 12" get priced reasonably in half a decade.

Concerning the last statement: Yes, if your goal is to sound like a (in my opinion horrible quality, IMAX or otherwise,) cinema, then don't worry about deep bass, just focus on turning the volume up and playing movies with bad people making bad choices for the dialogue like Tenet*, and you'll get the theater experience.

*I don't know how much is the fault of the IMAX calibration and theater, or if it was the mixing and mastering, or Nolan willfully pulling an Interstellar (which I love by the way) but Tenet has bad sound and the people involved should feel bad and release a corrected version when it comes out for consumers.
 

RayDunzl

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3ll3d00d

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I found a good post that debated that, but I had another thought: has anyone ever isolated the subwoofers to make sure that it's not vibrations transmitting through the floor?
this would vary with room more than anything

this has been measured though, it's not a big factor in many rooms.
 
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sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

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I found a good post that debated that, but I had another thought: has anyone ever isolated the subwoofers to make sure that it's not vibrations transmitting through the floor?

Still not completely convinced. And if there are more vibrations and rumble from a ported sub it will necessarily have higher distortion, which the port enthusiasts insist isn't the case.
 

echopraxia

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If something is used for cinema, sound reinforcement, or "professional" use by a DJ, the focus seems to be getting it as loud as possible. To me that means everything else is sacrificed, including people's hearing, and the engineers should find other jobs.

TL;DR: A cinema experience isn't something to aspire to or look at for reference unless loudness is your primary goal and you're willing to sacrifice almost everything else for it.

Longer version:
For many people and cinemas though, more SPL is all they want/need, and the more they get, the more they need, and they enjoy living out that cycle.

I don't "need" sub-woofers that go deeper at home, many just like them, personally I like the idea of something being much better than a theater which is why I have a 77" OLED that I sit fairly close to after trying a few projectors, because the movie theater is focused on big and loud, and I want quality. Hopefully RGB laser projectors come down in cost or MicroLED TVs around 12" get priced reasonably in half a decade.

Concerning the last statement: Yes, if your goal is to sound like a (in my opinion horrible quality, IMAX or otherwise,) cinema, then don't worry about deep bass, just focus on turning the volume up and playing movies with bad people making bad choices for the dialogue like Tenet*, and you'll get the theater experience.

*I don't know how much is the fault of the IMAX calibration and theater, or if it was the mixing and mastering, or Nolan willfully pulling an Interstellar (which I love by the way) but Tenet has bad sound and the people involved should feel bad and release a corrected version when it comes out for consumers.
Have you ever been to a high end movie theater? The mids/treble sound quality is quite good in some cases, and the ability to deliver tactile sensation of impacts etc is better than most audiophile home theaters, I’d bet.

Don’t look down on people (calling them “bad people”) for wanting a more enjoyable home theater experience. You can look down on practices that may cause hearing damage, but none of what is being discussed here risks that — we are talking about bass peaks, not chasing after mids/treble that cause instant hearing damage.

It is not about achieving maximum SPL (since you seem to have this impression) or playing movies at 115db LFE continuously — it’s about meeting a standard specification for peak speaker SPL capability. This standard exists for a reason: to ensure that dynamic peaks intended by the movie creators are not compressed during playback. Compression is bad for sound quality, of course. In bass, not only does it reduce impact, but it corrupts the signal as it was intended by the artist. And, unlike the endless audiophile pursuit for the best sound quality, SPL is easily measurable, and for home theater there is one standard spec to meet — where once you’ve met that, you’re done.

Lastly, many may not realize that even some acoustic music tracks have large bass peaks. I could refer you to an orchestral piece with a bass drum hit whose impact (during realistic playback levels) probably pushes 110dB - 120dB, as is true to such drums in real life. It is not painfully loud, it doesn’t hurt the ears or risk any damage whatsoever. It is a large pulse of air, and reproducing it is just really hard — but when it is reproduced without compression, it sounds and feels amazingly immersive. Yet most systems cannot reproduce this drum correctly. My Genelec 7350A subwoofer clipping indicator light will flash every time this track is played at realistic volume, for example.

Powerful, deep, impactful bass is hard. There is nothing wrong with sacrificing a little extension to achieve more impact, especially when you know bass peaks are being compressed otherwise.
 
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Chromatischism

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Still not completely convinced. And if there are more vibrations and rumble from a ported sub it will necessarily have higher distortion, which the port enthusiasts insist isn't the case.
Why would it have higher acoustic distortion? I don't think so. These are two separate effects.
 
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sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

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Why would it have higher acoustic distortion? I don't think so. These are two separate effects.

Vibrations anywhere but in the air (sound waves) are necessarily an addition to the signal and as such some kind of distortion? And if the sound waves are different, that's also distortion. Subwoofer cabinets are built as rigid as possible for a reason. :)
 
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3ll3d00d

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Vibrations anywhere but in the air (sound waves) are necessarily an addition to the signal and as such some kind of distortion? And if the sound waves are different, that's also distortion. Subwoofer cabinets are built as rigid as possible for a reason. :)
this makes v little sense, you only have to look at the many measurements of ported subs to know this

the threads that went into this suggest that the relevant mechanism is sound intensity (which is pressure * particle velocity) and that this drives tactile sensation, around tune a ported sub has much higher pvl for a given sound pressure so the intensity is correspondingly higher and hence the difference in tactile sensation.
 

Chromatischism

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this makes v little sense, you only have to look at the many measurements of ported subs to know this

the threads that went into this suggest that the relevant mechanism is sound intensity (which is pressure * particle velocity) and that this drives tactile sensation, around tune a ported sub has much higher pvl for a given sound pressure so the intensity is correspondingly higher and hence the difference in tactile sensation.
We're discussing this on AVS currently. I'll say that I'm not convinced of the particle velocity hypothesis. I found some thoughts that match mine but say it much better.

Check out the post at 4/6/2015 at 7:01 PM by user SME:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/404-understanding-and-optimizing-tactile-feedback/

Note "PVL" = particle velocity
 
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sigbergaudio

sigbergaudio

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this makes v little sense, you only have to look at the many measurements of ported subs to know this

the threads that went into this suggest that the relevant mechanism is sound intensity (which is pressure * particle velocity) and that this drives tactile sensation, around tune a ported sub has much higher pvl for a given sound pressure so the intensity is correspondingly higher and hence the difference in tactile sensation.

I'm not sure who of us are not making sense, but I think there are some sciency stuff you're misunderstanding here. The speed of sound is constant in a given environment, and sound is air waves of varying frequencies, and frequencies are the length of the airwaves making up the sound. So all this is pretty much (exactly) constant for a given frequency/sound at a given SPL. And there's nothing creating vibrations in your couch or you except those soundwaves.

So at least to me it seems pretty logical that if the tactile sensation is different from two different subwoofers, the sound is necessarily different too. And that means one of them must have higher distortion than the other, if we agree that distortion is deviation from the original sound (source). If neither had any distortion, the sound would be exactly the same, and so would any induced vibrations.
 
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