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Why aren't cinemas targeting sub 20hz response?

Chromatischism

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It does kick in slightly too soon, in my opinion.

Rythmik G22 Pair Extension.png


The effect is noticeable even at 75 dB, though. And that's in music that while it reaches low, is not trying to pound hard like a movie LFE track. This is why I try to steer people away from subs that only extend to 30 Hz, or even just barely to 20 Hz.
 
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Don Hills

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Let’s say a theater is 40ft•80ft•30ft, that is almost 100,000 cubic feet.
A nice home theater may be upwards of 3000 cubic feet, that means a regular theater (forget IMAX & Dolby) is >30x the cubic volume.

That is simply too much volume to get appreciable response down to even 20Hz. The loudest sub at 20Hz that Data-Bass has measured is the ZOD MAUL, which is a quadruple 19” sub where each driver is $2000, and that achieved almost 130dB @ 20Hz.

A typical cinema is a reasonable approximation to a closed box - less "leaky" than a typical living room or some home theatres.
So we can apply "room gain" rules, where the free-air rule of "half the frequency requires four times the excursion" changes to a linear 1:1 rule.
Look also at the equal loudness contours, which show that to achieve a moderate listening level of some 85 dB SPL, in the region of 120 dB SPL is required at 20 Hz for equal perceived loudness.
The attached spreadsheet indicates that the aforementioned ZOD M.A.U.L would reach about 95 dB SPL in the theatre size suggested above.
So 16 of them required......
 

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Frank Dernie

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I think I was last 72kg when I was 10 years old.
My first visit to the USA, in fact my first time outside UK, was to Milwaukee as an exchange engineering student in 1970. I was 20 and weighed 68kg.
I have gone up since.
 

Wombat

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Those very low frequencies at such levels are hard to absorb, and they can propagate over long distances. The EPA may have a hand in making use of such frequencies in theatres 'hard work'.
 
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Chromatischism

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Those very low frequencies at such levels are hard to absorb, and they can propagate over long distances. The EPA may have a hand in making use of such frequencies in theatres 'hard work'.
Doubtful. It's just economics. And it wouldn't be kosher to have people watching a drama then suddenly get blasted by the destruction of the Death Star next door.
 
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sigbergaudio

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Did a simple experiment yesterday: Added around 1dB with a low Q above 20hz, so a wide frequency range (around 25-60hz), and at the same time removed about twice that (2dB) below 20hz. The result was a fuller sound.

Might seem obvious, but sound below 20hz doesn't seem to add much to the audible experience, and punch/volume above 20hz is probably more important if one had to choose. And this little experiment may also explain why we don't necessarily feel like anything is missing in the cinema. That said, the subsonic frequencies can of course add to the physical experience.
 

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RayDunzl

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"Why aren't cinemas targeting sub 20hz response?"

Maybe nothing there to target?

Here's Ironman 2, in the area of the car racing and electrical arc reactor whip slashing and car crashing - with the assumption that would have some low frequencies in it.

Source is Amazon Prime, and the TV's stereo optical output

So, I don't know if all the bandwidth is there, it's definitely cut off at the top end, and not presenting anything of note below 20Hz. I have pipe organ music that does more down low low.

No "LFE" channel, so, ???

Top - In room via UMIK-1
Bottom - combined channels from the TV

1600151737184.png
 
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Wombat

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Most home video watchers would have speakers/soundbars/tiny vented subwoofer that would have apoplexy below 40Hz if the system went so low..

Average consumers are outside of the HT/HiFi bubble and are probably thrilled with current theatre sound compared to what is at home.
 
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echopraxia

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Did a simple experiment yesterday: Added around 1dB with a low Q above 20hz, so a wide frequency range (around 25-60hz), and at the same time removed about twice that (2dB) below 20hz. The result was a fuller sound.

Might seem obvious, but sound below 20hz doesn't seem to add much to the audible experience, and punch/volume above 20hz is probably more important if one had to choose. And this little experiment may also explain why we don't necessarily feel like anything is missing in the cinema. That said, the subsonic frequencies can of course add to the physical experience.
This thread is such a weird combination of opinions, where one side practically says you absolutely must have in room response flat to 10hz and capable of 120dB+ (or whatever) AND use this database of subsonic bass boost EQ settings. And another side that points out how content below 30hz (1) is mostly not audible and tactile at best, (2) takes a TON of energy to reproduce with very little real benefit vs 30hz subs and a “buttkicker” attached to the couch, and (3) really does not seem to be how the movie was mastered or intended to be consumed anyway, independent of system capability.

I am interested in audio fidelity. To me, that means reproducing the art accurately to how the artist intended. Adding big sub-bass boosts to movies seems to deviate from that goal, unless there’s a good argument for why almost every movie creator releases their art with the sound track unintentionally destroyed below 30hz, and why even if so, EQ’ing it back is the right thing to do vs just experiencing it as it was released from the mastering studio.

Otherwise, the focus on super powerful movie sub bass boosts strikes me as the movie equivalent of music audiophiles using different tube amps to pair with different music etc. Nothing wrong with this of course if it makes you happy, but unless the original content creators also apply this distortion to their playback systems, this is a less accurate reproduction of the art.

I would rather experience the content exactly as it was mastered / intended to be experienced by the authors.
 
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echopraxia

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I think you meant intentionally. It's well known that the LFE track is neutered on many movie releases and it's not true to the original source.
So I guess my question is: what is the original source, and how do we get it?

P.S. Also, is this “original source” the same as is played at movie theaters, or something else only some small handful of people experience before they decide to intentionally destroy the low frequency content prior to releasing the movie?

It just seems very odd to me that any mastering process would spend time (money) making 10-30hz sound great, then intentionality discard that when releasing their work.
 
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echopraxia

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The following was originally a reply I posted in another thread also discussing HT speakers, but I think the bass extension portion of that discussion belongs here even more so, since that’s exactly what this thread is about:

Attempting to achieve reference SPL bass completely flat down to 20hz (vs e.g. 30hz or 35hz) is almost an unrealistic goal in most situations (except in a cost-is-no-object system, or really tiny rooms), when you consider you need something like 10 kilowatts and $10k of subwoofers to comfortably achieve 115db-120db @ 20hz at listening position in a large home theater room.

I want to point out that 115db-120db peak subwoofer output is not my requirement. 115db SPL from LFE is the requirement to satisfy THX reference SPL specs! (The often quoted 105db reference SPL is for the main LCR speakers, not LFE.) Also, this 115db requirement is for LFE alone; if you set your LCR and other speakers to “small” on your AVR (so that their bass content goes to the subs), then you need to further increase the subwoofer peak capabilities to account for the extra bass content demands; hence, this is why I and the article linked above claim that home theater subwoofers must be capable of at least 115db SPL (and often up to 120db) in order to meet official “THX reference” specs.

Now, when we are forced to choose a compromise (given how demanding 120db @ 20hz is in terms of cost, space, electrical power, etc.), do we prefer to severely reduce SPL capability, or do we prefer to somewhat reduce the depth of bass extension (to "only" that which high end theaters use)? That’s the key question of this thread.

To answer that question, imagine a double blind test comparing the two sound systems for a home cinema experience:

System A: LCR mains capable of 105db from 100hz to 20khz, and sub(s) capable of 105db down to 10hz.

System B: LCR mains capable of 105db from 100hz to 20khz, and sub(s) capable of 120db down to 30hz.

My claim: I bet you that in a double blind test consisting of many participants (spanning casual movie watchers, to film critics, to home theater audiophiles), the vast majority will overall prefer the experience produced by System B that prioritizes meeting reference level SPL first, even if bass extension "only" reaches down to 30hz (which seems to be the case with most real movie theaters, even extremely high end ones as mentioned by @CDMC here). I claim this because System A will compress during explosions and high dynamic range bass content, and will not be able to produce the same tactile sensation of impact that high SPL bass/midbass can (and as is required by the THX reference spec).

Even if your subwoofers can reproduce e.g. 115db at 40hz but not at 20hz, even 40hz sound effects may end up getting compressed anyway when simultaneous content at 20hz exceeds the subwoofer's capabilities (and causes the sub to start severely compressing its entire output)! The only exception I can imagine would be if there's a really intelligent DSP compression algorithm being used by the subwoofer, similar to how Buchardt's active speakers dynamically adjust the bass extension cut-off instead of compromising the linearity of all woofer frequencies. But I'm not sure if any subwoofers out there do this. This could also explain why some people report their HT system actually sounds better when intentionally rolling off the subwoofer's response below 30hz instead of 20hz or 10hz.
 
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Chromatischism

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You can get 119 dB @ 20 Hz from 3x FV18 for $5k.

However, I would contend that theatre reference level is almost never used at home. I would subtract 10 dB for a more realistic level. In that case, 2x FV15HP are perfect for the task and will only set you back half that. Therefore, I suggest:

System C: LCR mains capable of 95db from 100hz to 20khz, and sub(s) capable of 105
db down to 10hz.

That is what you get when listening at -10, a common home movie level.

With that said, some prefer to equalize and boost the bass region, so they may want more. Also, there's nothing wrong with having main speakers capable of more than 95 dB, in fact it's preferred, but I just wanted to illustrate that the SPL requirements need not be so high.
 

echopraxia

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Therefore, I suggest:

System C: LCR mains capable of 95db from 100hz to 20khz, and sub(s) capable of 105
db down to 10hz.
That's really no different from "System A" I posted, aside from weaker LCR's. So I'm not sure what purpose System C serves as distinct from System A.

I still think the vast majority of people will prefer System B above over any of these. I've played music with bass peaks regularly pushing 105db. It's loud, but it's not as subjectively loud as you'd think (vs high frequency 95db, which is very painful).

115db peak LFE capability wasn't specified as THX reference requirement for no reason; this is required to experience the full 'impact' sound and tactile feeling from explosions peaks etc.

Remember, these numbers are specified at the listening position. Therefore, room size shouldn't matter here, as we are speaking of the SPL experienced by the listener (not coming out of the speaker).
 

Chromatischism

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It was in the context you provided, that is, how unrealistic it is to get reference level bass in the home.

I'm saying that reference level is unrealistic in the home, period. And, if you loosen the SPL requirement a bit, you don't need to compromise on the 10 Hz vs 30 Hz aspect.
 

echopraxia

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It was in the context you provided, that is, how unrealistic it is to get reference level bass in the home.

I'm saying that reference level is unrealistic in the home, period. And, if you loosen the SPL requirement a bit, you don't need to compromise on the 10 Hz vs 30 Hz aspect.
Yes but that's the question, isn't it? Is the experience better if we give up 10hz bass extension, in order to retain the ability of reference level bass SPL down to 30hz, or is it better to compromise bass SPL (e.g. tactile explosion impact effects) to chase after inaudible 10hz reproduction, which you don't even get in movie theaters?

FYI my dual Rythmik F18's can easily reach the 105db SPL you claim is sufficient. But I can tell you, at least in my room, 105db bass is insufficient to reproduce the powerful impact sound effects that those meager 30hz movie theaters achieve easily :)
 

Chromatischism

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I agree, in my experience with sealed Rythmiks. I would prefer 95 dB mains and 115 dB subs. Vented also changes how we perceive the sound (more powerful at the same SPL).
 
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