• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Why are we here?

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,195
Likes
11,808
I'm here because I have a low tolerance for b.s. and a place like this is an oasis for "the sensible audiophile."

I'm an artsy fartsy who has never studied electronics, never tried building a speaker, or amp, or whatever, so I don't have the direct knowledge to make my way through lots of the dubious claims in audio. Mostly I rely on the "sniff test" for audio claims and whatever info I can glean from discussions among people who are in a position to know what they are talking about.

I've always enjoyed philosophy and have a pretty well developed sense of logical coherence, in detecting when arguments and claims are invalid or unsound or unsupported by evidence, and I have a pretty good grasp of how science works and why it works. So those are some of the "skills" I try to apply everywhere and so much in high end audio is, as everyone here knows, bursting with pseudo-science. It's impossible for me not to notice that the claims made by audiophiles for tweaks/cables etc are vetted the same way every other dubious claim is vetted, from astrology to prayer, to psychics, to alternative medicine, new age nostrums, you name it. My brain would snap in two at the sheer inconsistency of calling that stuff out everywhere else, except for my own pet hobby. The fact I am empirically inclined also leads me toward defending and participating in blind testing (when the need or mood strikes).

So I come to a site like this and some others, including AVSforum, Archimago's blog, as a brain-balm, a place where I can read about or discuss audio without my synapses snapping reading poorly reasoned and evidenced ideas about audio.

It's interesting though, that one doesn't simply end up with "everyone is on the same page" even when people are trying to converge on a method that is as objective as possible. There are still disagreements to be found.

My only issue is that I also enjoy and value part of the subjectivist audiophile dialogue: that of talking about and exchanging notes about sound in subjective terms. As I've said before here: the sound coming out of our systems sounds like something. And it's human to want to communicate about what we are experiencing, describing the nature of sound as I would food, or something visual like art, film, whatever. One could stick to a strictly technical discussion if everyone where knowledgeable (and in the mixing theater I may talk to the mixer in terms of eq and frequency ranges). But even a fully technical description doesn't go all the way IMO, because, frequency peaks and dips *sound like something* and produce certain sonic characteristics for certain instruments, and which can change the nature of the sound, and have an effect on the how the music is experienced. So there is an experiential phenomena still left to describe, and I truly enjoy attempting to do so and exchanging notes with others as to "what does this sound like? Are you hearing what I'm hearing?"

The problem is: introduce too much of the subjective talk in a place like this, and it could water down goal of the forum to try to talk in terms of what can be tested, or what is technically plausible/measurable.

But I find that some of the things I really care about tend to be waved away or left off the table in more objectivist forums.

So, I find I have to still inhabit some subjective audio forums to get my fix of talking subjectively about sound - mostly speakers. And when being mired in too much pure subjectivity starts to make me feel unmoored from reality, and when the religious-like subjectivism and wild claims are being lapped up all around me without apparent critical thought, I come running back to forums like this to clear my head.

But, as I seek to have a coherent, defensible position on this hobby that embraces both the objective and subjective aspects, without making B.S. claims while doing so, I find myself defending the objectivist stance in the subjectivist forums, and doing *some* defending of subjectivism in the objectivist forums.
 
Last edited:

RayDunzl

Grand Contributor
Central Scrutinizer
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
13,198
Likes
16,981
Location
Riverview FL

Thomas savage

Grand Contributor
The Watchman
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
10,260
Likes
16,298
Location
uk, taunton
I'm here because I took a wrong turn , oh and think having mags by the toilet is unhygienic.

My interest in hifi grew from seeing some Krell advertisement in my teens .. the gear was all so expensive I could dare not imagine owning it. Fast forward a few years and my mum's new husband had a quad system, TDL speakers and lusted after big Krell amps.

He helped me buy my first hifi, Quad 67 CDP 66 pre and 606/2 amp all hooked up to a pair of decent bookshelfs.. wondered into a hifi store in my local town soon after to buy some bigger speakers .


Got into the second hand scene, bought the Krell gear I never thought I'd own .. had some eye opening sound experiences.

It all went wrong when my beloved Krell CDP died and I could not find a replacement I liked as much.. ended up throwing money at it and it all got out of hand .

Worrying about the 2k I lost when my second hand Krell died to spending ridiculous sums on gear, some kind of addiction I guess.

I wanted perfection and obsessively read through all the ' reviews ' looking for the ultimate.

As for why I'm here at ASR , god knows ... @amirm had no friends and I felt sorry for him I guess .
 

Thomas H

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2019
Messages
27
Likes
37
Location
North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany
Signed up five minutes ago, this thread looked like a good opportunity. But why?

Well, after a long time with "standard gear", I made a purchase decision some 6 months ago for an actively powered DIY loudspeaker kit with a Hypex plate amp. My old streamer at this time was "end of lifecycle" and I somehow found out, that one actually can built a streamer using SBCs namely Raspberry and HAT. But are these solutions, in particular the Allo Boards are any good? So, I started surfing the net...

Found a "review" by a guy named Darko with rather impressive presentation skills on YT, found Hans Beekhuyzen (not so impressive), but I also found Archimago and this site, of course. I was surprised to find a lot of measurements which I barely understood at this time. But considering (not only) the credentials of Amir, I thought: may be these guys here are right about what they are doing and claiming? And so I started reading ... a lot ... And actually enjoyed the reading, my knowledge increasing and also the good manners on this site, which is not a given these days in the net.

To complete the story, my streamer now is a Pi with an Allo board, despite some people saying "how do you dare to feed a 3k€ DIY kit with such a device? There is so much more in these speakers, they deserve better gear". I give a damn, because in broad terms I know better...

Needless to say, that I discontinued the subscriptions to the YT channels mentioned above.
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,070
Likes
16,599
Location
Central Fl

Eirikur

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Messages
318
Likes
509
I came here initially looking for guidance on a USB DAC. Being reasonably knowledgeable about the "soft" digital domain (signal processing, software), I found my knowledge lacking when it comes to hardware implementations.
This site provokes me to in-depth research subjects such as the USB audio protocols - it's just data, right? Wrong!
 
Last edited:

eliash

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2019
Messages
407
Likes
209
Location
Bavaria, near lake Ammersee
Probably fascination for technology, audio technology offering the benefaction of music enjoyment and therefore providing more personal satisfaction than other technologies...
 

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
4,337
Likes
7,729
Why am I here.
1. I've enjoyed music for as long as I can remember. I was probably around 10 when I noticed that some sources sounded better than others, that began my path to better gear. I enjoy music and the better it sounds the more I enjoy it.
2. It was probably around 1980-90s that I realized that the subjective world and it's magazines were FOS, that Peter Aczel was right on and much of the high end world was just trying to fleece my wallet.
3. As I became more of a hard core objectivist I felt more and more displaced in the majority of high fidelity media. Just after Amir started ASR one of my friends @Blumlein 88 pointed me here and the rest is history.
4. I have little real tech knowledge but enjoy spending time and learning from the people here that have the know-all to help me learn.


Thanks Sal, I will simply use your post as a template :p:cool::
1. I've enjoyed music for as long as I can remember. I was probably around 10 when I noticed that some things sounded better than others e.g the copies made on my father expensive BASF tapes using a large Philips R2R N4256. the darn thing is still there but ... did sound better than those made on the TOL Lafayette 8-track deck, the Lafayette was the TOL then ... , that began my path to better gear. I enjoy music and the better it sounds the more I enjoy it.
2. It was probably around 2006~2007 that I realized that the subjective world and it's magazines were FOS. Then I realized that prices were on an upward spiral that made no sense. I heard then an Ongaku based system and it was the revelation I was waitng for. An Audio Note Ongaku was driving a full range one driver speaker, I asked the person to play Mahler Symphony 2 on it .. up to then, they were playing some female accompanied by a guitar or things similar :( .. Mahler it played with all the muster of an AM clock radio ....I began to realize, but not fully, that much of the high end audio world was just trying to fleece naive enthusiasts's wallets.
3. As I became more of a hard core objectivist around 2015~6 (took me a long time to realize this!!!???) I felt more and more displaced in the majority of high fidelity media. Just after Amir started ASR, he invited me to join... and the rest is history.
4. I am an EE and realize every day how little I know about things Audio. I have learned here more than in all my 50 years plus in High End Audio.

We must understand that it takes time to fully come around. In spite of my newfound objectivist bent around 2009, I remained a subjectivist up to 2016 on many fronts. I was willing to spend serious money chasing the holy grail: In 2010 I was forced to turn to headphones/ My subjectivist penchants, again took over. I spent for almost 6 years serious money on DAC and headphones amps; most of these from High End or High-End-ish manufacturers. Results were all over the place, of course I heard "vast" differences. Then ASR came to be and it became my #1 destination for things Audio. And I learned, and I am still learning, and I realized that I wasn't spending more money. In fact the best DAC I have is $99 and the best amp I have ever had is $100. The ASR Special (Atom +Tone Board) drives all my headphones, save for the ESL Stax which requires an ESL Amp, with aplomb. It does that so well that I was prompted to start a thread to measure the SPL level of my headphones. They all sound the best I have heard them and with no distortion. One tends then to play louder than healthy because you would be listening on the HiFiman at 105 dB and not hear any distortion.. That feeling of having your jaws vibrating is almost addictive ... Then I re-discovered the joy of HT with a sensible system that can reach 20 hz @ 107 dB in my room ( courtesy of 3 Parts Express fsubwoofer for the stupendous total of $750 including shipping and a $100 miniDSP to work out the subs ...), 3 JBL LSR 308 for about $800, 2 LSR 305 for less than $300 , an AVR for less than 800. Total <-$3200...

There is now in Audio the equivalent of a Stephen Colbert bump :D ... Obscure brands are being taken seriously by enthusiasts (Topping, RME, Khadas, Sabaj, etc ...), once they are unearthed by ASR. The ASR site has become a reference. Manufacturers now are more careful to the extent that some who, up to then, were misleading the enthusiast with BSchiit now have taken the turn of measurements to back-up their claims... Schiit ;) it is among, perhaps, others.
To answer the OP. I am here because I have learned a lot, saved a lot, increase my enjoyment of music and HT, met with truly interesting people and discuss topics of interest. Long live ASR!! Thanks Amir! Thanks people!.
 
Last edited:

Midwest Blade

Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2019
Messages
401
Likes
535
Have been an audio afficianado for many years, drifted in and out and a few years ago back in, completely missed the whole computer/download/files era and remain whoefully ignorant on the subject. Used to be an avid reader of all the magazines and reviews which eventually graduated to online content. Became really discontent with the quantity of BS that was flowing and eventually was able to land at ASR and a couple of other sites that held objectivity and real science as a basis for making information available. Still like to follow a few people on youtube, but mostly for entertainment, some of the stuff is...you know what. Keeping it simple is what I find most enjoyable and my two current systems reflect that thought.
 

LeftCoastTim

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 15, 2019
Messages
375
Likes
757
I’m here for Amir’s tests.

It saddens me that audio is so thoroughly infected by anti-test and anti-science bias.

This site is an oasis of good measurements and sound theory (Harman research).

Yet even here, voodoo cannot be completely eradicated. I’m looking at you, “which cable” thread.
 

mjwin

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2019
Messages
43
Likes
110
Location
UK
I'm a newbie here & I've not long known of this site. But why am I here?

Well, I've always been interested in music. And sound. As a kid, I had a portable tape recorder which I carried around, recording stuff, everything. At playback, there was something wonderful about the way my imagination recreated the recorded event, and I was hooked. Radio drama was something I always loved. Still do, though there seems to be less of it around these days. Over the past 10 years, I've rekindled my interest in sound recording & now record a lot of natural soundscapes around where I live.

Besides my own recordings & those of other nature sound recordists, I listen to a lot of what would generally be called "classical" music. Though most of it is contemporary, small scale chamber work so not that classical in the true sense of the word. Living in a rural area limits the number of concerts that I can attend these days, but I find the concept of "music in the home" an admirable substitute. Ok, so I'll never recreate an exact acoustic replica of a live event, but if I can get close enough for my imagination to take over, that's good enough for me. Besides which, the chairs are more comfortable & there's no one coughing across the aisle or wearing hideous perfume a couple of rows back.

I guess my main audio system is pretty high spec by most people's standards, but I keep it simple. Basically just a CD player/DAC/preamp combo & a pair of active monitors. I press "go" & music comes out. That's how I like it.

I tend to get decent stuff & keep it till it breaks. Then I'll fix it & keep it till it falls to dust. That goes for pretty much everything I buy. I don't like word to get out for obvious reasons, but I'm known as "Mr fix it" up here in the hills! Functionality, reliability, they're the key factors. But I'm an engineer, & I guess form follows function.

I got into audio in the early '80s, just before the lunatic fringe got a hold of it on these shores. It was an exciting time: the new QUAD Electrostatic speaker had just been launched & CD was on the horizon. It seemed that we should be able to make stuff better than before &, as an electronics engineer, I wanted to be part of that. Fortunately, I think common sense got the better of me & I kept audio as an interest/hobby, whilst concentrating my business on the more predictable requirements of industrial automation!

I do find the whole audiophi** thing very sad. I won't even write that word. The equipment should be a means to an end, not the end in itself. Of course people need guidance on what to buy, what's out there, we all do. But it's as if a weird cult has got hold of "music in the home" and turned it all into a strange parody of itself.

ASR seems to be a lone voice of sanity on the interweb. And one I'm happy to be part of
 

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,825
Because for the most part I feel at home.
 

ahofer

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
4,947
Likes
8,694
Location
New York City
Because ever since I was about 10 I've been listening to music, staring at album covers, and immersing myself in the sound of the performance. Often with the lights off. It's like meditation.

There's a threshold level of sound quality at which I'm no longer distracted by lack of realism/accuracy and can drift away. It can be achieved starting around the LS50w level of investment (plus the media/software). The combination of my recently empty nest, and the Harbeth lack of coloration (or whatever it is that makes their sound so natural and inviting) have added significantly to my listening time over the last year.
 

GradyBeach247

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2019
Messages
33
Likes
47
Not for the Truck/SUV drivers. I see over all the mini'cars just great. ;)
In Texas, getting a truck or SUV for transportation is considered defensive driving - a Mini can get wedged between the front and back tires of the average Toyota Tundra and the driver wouldn't notice it, except for the whine emanating from the undercarriage.
 

Putter

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Messages
492
Likes
771
Location
Albany, NY USA
What they don't realize is that all that wonderful adjectives "auditory fluidity, and soundstage width, sparkly engaging musicality, sound alacrity, emotional profundity" can be SERIOUSLY experienced from just grooving along from listening to FM radio. If all stars are aligned (your mood, your favorite music, your favorite weather, etc. etc. are all aligned), I bet 100% you'll experience all that mumbo jumbo with a frigging FM radio blasting on your boom box

I've only experienced this a few times. Listening to Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto on the car radio. Listening to Allman Brothers Whipping Post live at the Fillmore East., Coltrane's A Love Supreme on what? I think it was a Pioneer receiver off the radio through Advent Legacy speakers. Also listening to Are You Experienced? on LSD through Epicure 11 speakers and thanking my un'stoned' self for having a good system.

The point is the emotional experience of connecting with music for me at least is not something that can be switched on and off. It just happens, but is enhanced with a good sound system.

As far as how I got here, I found online articles of the Audio Critic, now sadly defunct and realized how much hype and random experience with no validation was out there. I actually googled 'audio science' and found this forum.

As for my equipment, most of it is 2nd hand acquired though thrifts and Craig's list. a Denon universal DVD player for CD's, a Sony Blu ray, a sub from a Def Tech home theater system, Infinity modulus centers and surrounds, a Sansui Tuner, and a GNP Model 10 speakers. There's other stuff, basically a system for every room. Most of this is well below what I've seen posters list. The only exception maybe the Denon AVR-X3300W AV receiver which has Audyssey MultEq XT32 and Sub Eq in the basement home theater which at least has one of the more advanced room correction suites even if it tests lousy by Amir's standards.
 

Sergei

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 20, 2018
Messages
361
Likes
272
Location
Palo Alto, CA, USA
The tree huggers all but destroyed the big car market here in the US. All you can buy today are these fugly little 4 door Schitt boxes that all look the same.
But we fooled them, now we all got big pickup trucks and SUV's to be safe in. US 2018 sales were 5.3 million autos and 11.9 million light trucks. LOL

Gallery-Wheel-v2.jpg.image.1440.jpg

It is fitting that the photo is of one of quietest and most comfortable vehicles ever made. Yep, according to https://www.auto-decibel-db.com/desktop.html, 2010 Dodge RAM V8 5.7 handily outperforms Mercedes S-class, and the rest of the allegedly most luxurious cars, in this regard.

The craving for trucks in not all driven by consumers though. Do you know what was the most important qualifying difference between a passenger car subject to the onerous CAFE regulations, and a passenger truck that is not? The distance of the cabin floor, where the passenger feet rest, from the road! Most convincingly illustrated by Subaru, who switched their Outback from being classified as a passenger car to being classified as a truck merely by adding several inches of suspension height - now you know why its profile looks so strange :)

So, the classic American big sedans and station wagons - comfortable, safe, and aerodynamic - had to go. Significantly taller, and thus inherently less fuel-efficient vehicles, nevertheless excluded from the most stringent Corporate Average Fuel Economy tier, were brought in. Some conspiracy theorists say that the US Big Oil legislative lobby was behind this, as the passenger cars technology improvements were starting seriously squeezing their sales.
 

digicidal

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 6, 2019
Messages
1,981
Likes
4,838
Location
Sin City, NV
I basically wound up here due to the fact that I had a sort of epiphany while looking for a new DAC online and being discontented with so many of the subjective reviews of equipment. The realization wasn't new actually, but it was simply that if the gear that was used to create recordings didn't really have any "magic" in it... how could it be the correct approach to search for it in the playback side either?

After buying my ultra-budget LSR 305's and hearing a subjectively better sound than I was from speakers costing many multiples of their cost - I was firmly convinced this was the correct approach (for me at least). Searching out an objective source of measurements and comparison was a natural follow-up. Of course it helps that, with a few exceptions, everyone on the forum is not only very knowledgeable and intelligent... but also friendly and down to earth in most ways.

Sure there are egos everywhere (I've got one too) but I find it refreshing that there are true "pillars of the industry" here that generally seem to have checked theirs at the door. Ironically in the more subjective circles (especially online) the opposite is true - little to no practical knowledge of physics, acoustics, or engineering - yet massive egos which will suffer no criticism at all. :rolleyes:

I guess I'm just getting too old to dig through much more of that... gimme the "straight poop" any day.

The tree huggers all but destroyed the big car market here in the US. All you can buy today are these fugly little 4 door Schitt boxes that all look the same.
But we fooled them, now we all got big pickup trucks and SUV's to be safe in. US 2018 sales were 5.3 million autos and 11.9 million light trucks. LOL

Although you are definitely correct in a general sense... all is not lost:
2020-Chevrolet-Corvette-3LT-Z51-front-three-quarter-in-motion-2.jpg
 
Last edited:

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,070
Likes
16,599
Location
Central Fl
Although you are definitely correct in a general sense... all is not lost:
The new C8 Corvette, Awesome!
See the USA in Your Chevrolet :)
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,522
Likes
37,050
In Texas, getting a truck or SUV for transportation is considered defensive driving - a Mini can get wedged between the front and back tires of the average Toyota Tundra and the driver wouldn't notice it, except for the whine emanating from the undercarriage.
I hate it in traffic with my Miata. I can't see around the behemoths. I can live with that. But I've considered selling the Miata because I can't park it anywhere. People nearly run into it with their huge SUV's they can't see the edges of because it is so small and low to the ground. It keeps happening over and over.

Maybe I need to do this, but Nope, can't see myself doing this.
1575359450073.png
 
Top Bottom