Why are there so many Snake Oil in this business?

[smowry]

Well if you think the SOLTZ is bad, then check this out.

In February 2009, I published a discussion of my 4 x NdFeB ring magnet ironless motor assembly concept in Voice Coil magazine.
https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archi.../Mowry_Steve/Air_Core_Tweeter_Magnet_Assy.pdf

Then in October 2019, Michael Borresen filed a patent application claiming to have invented a 4 x NdFeB ring magnet ironless motor assembly. Subsequently he was granted US Patent US10993035B2. https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ee/58/7f/2bcce6b865b6e7/US10993035.pdf "You know he read it in a magazine." Sir Elton John

Now below are two pictures. The one on the left is from my Voice Coil publication, while the one on the right is from Patent US10993035B2, brace yourself.

Michael Borresen has effectively done nothing to me. I do not claim to own the 4 x Neo ring magnet ironless motor assembly. On the contrary, I published and fully disclosed the concept. In February 2009, that concept moved from my desktop into the public domain. So what's the problem? As modest as that concept is, it was part of 5 years of independent research that included STEALLUS, STEALLUSX, and Almost Air Core motor assemblies. Borresen is attempting to steal the concept from the public domain and thus the loudspeaker industry. His business model is to lie, cheat and steal his way to profitability. This is consistent with his snake oil peddling.

 

[Mr. Widget]

In February 2009, I published a discussion of my...

Michael Borresen has effectively done nothing to me. I do not claim to own the 4 x Neo ring magnet ironless motor assembly. On the contrary, I published and fully disclosed the concept.

Well, up to you, but I used to work for a furniture designer who was able to prove he had prior art for a chair design that went into production. He was able to demand and collect a royalty on every chair sold even though the manufacturer probably came up with their design independantly.

 

[smowry]

Well what really got me was that Borresen went on LinkedIn and starting PUFFING!

"You know he read it in a magazine." Sir Elton John

 

[mhardy6647]

Only $1600 for pair.

uff da

 

[smowry]

What happens when the woofer's voice coil heats those NdFeB magnets around the gap?

They demag! Does Borresen understand his ironless woofer? I doubt it. "You know he read it in a magazine." Sir Elton John

So don't play that $250,000 loudspeaker pair too loud.

 

[smowry]

So here's how it works. The typical continuous power handling for a dome tweeter is ~10W; however, the typical continuous power handling for a woofer is ~100W. Audio moving coil transducers a very inefficient, typically ~1% efficiency. A motor without iron is potentially even lower. The other ~99% goes to heat. If somehow we could get a Borresen ironless woofer to Amir, he could be expose this joker.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Mainly because cognitive effects play a big role in what you hear. I started a thread with examples here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-placebo-effect-anecdotes.55067/#post-1999428

Getting back to the topic of Why is there so much Snake Oil?

Yes, hearing is mostly a cognitive task.

The very nature of stereophonic reproduction is using recording techniques to fool us. The recording engineers and musicians are trying to fool us into hearing an "image", or recreate a concert hall, or create a dramatic effect. These engineers and artists are relying on our inability to hear with pure objectivity.

I suppose to some on this forum the joy is in examining good engineering... for example ridiculously inaudible SINAD. But for those of us who want to get lost in the music or the recordings we love, it is usually best to turn off the analytical portion of our brains and just go with it.

Since for many this is the reason for hi-fi and home audio it opens many up to getting suckered by opportunists selling snake oil. When it comes to audio, we really are easily fooled.

For me, to get the most out of this hobby, it is a balancing act. I enjoy understanding how these things work, but then when I take the time to listen to the music, I actively ignore that part of my brain and let the other part revel in the music.

 

[OldHvyMec]

I find the whole process rather annoying to tell the truth. I like listening to music and what others do or say is their own business. If someone wants to spend a million dollars on a car or a friggin' jock strap, it's their business. It won't stop me from enjoying what I have and what I paid for. I'm still trying to get that 700 mpg carburetor working on my 51 Chevy PU. I have my own issues and a stereo system isn't even in the running as far as problems go.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I figured out what kind of speaker and equipment I liked 50+ years ago when my ears were good, nothing I hear, see or read about now is going to change what I like that a twist of a knob or two won't fix for the whoppin' cost of using the remote (now) to do it, or getting off my ass to turn the knob.

I just picked up a slightly used Mcintosh C53. Do you really think I care about what anyone on planet earth thinks about Mcintosh or if they think they are not worth the money?

Anyone want to buy a 51 Chevy PU, I got to pay for the C53 now. I'm just kidding. I actually paid for over half of the C53 with 200 of the 400lbs of change I had in buckets around the house. If I wasn't so tired of rolling nickels, dimes, and quarters I probably could have paid for the whole thing that way.

I'm surprised this thread had so many responses, to tell the truth. Maybe go feed the ducks or something or go pick some fresh wild FREE mustard greens.

Regards

 

[gilency]

Snake oil is everywhere. Is there in any of the sciences, medicine, biology. Lack of critical thinking and magical thinking are unfortunately very prevalent in this age of enlightenment. Read Sagan : Science as a candle in the darkness to better understand it.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I find the whole process rather annoying to tell the truth. I like listening to music and what others do or say is their own business. If someone wants to spend a million dollars on a car or a friggin' jock strap, it's their business. It won't stop me from enjoying what I have and what I paid for. I'm still trying to get that 700 mpg carburetor working on my 51 Chevy PU. I have my own issues and a stereo system isn't even in the running as far as problems go.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I figured out what kind of speaker and equipment I liked 50+ years ago when my ears were good, nothing I hear, see or read about now is going to change what I like that a twist of a knob or two won't fix for the whoppin' cost of using the remote (now) to do it, or getting off my ass to turn the knob.

I just picked up a slightly used Mcintosh C53. Do you really think I care about what anyone on planet earth thinks about Mcintosh or if they think they are not worth the money?

Anyone want to buy a 51 Chevy PU, I got to pay for the C53 now. I'm just kidding. I actually paid for over half of the C53 with 200 of the 400lbs of change I had in buckets around the house. If I wasn't so tired of rolling nickels, dimes, and quarters I probably could have paid for the whole thing that way.

I'm surprised this thread had so many responses, to tell the truth. Maybe go feed the ducks or something or go pick some fresh wild FREE mustard greens.

Regards

100%

I don't understand why some folks get upset when someone else does something that doesn't harm anyone but they think is wrong.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I find the whole process rather annoying to tell the truth. I like listening to music and what others do or say is their own business. If someone wants to spend a million dollars on a car or a friggin' jock strap, it's their business. It won't stop me from enjoying what I have and what I paid for. I'm still trying to get that 700 mpg carburetor working on my 51 Chevy PU. I have my own issues and a stereo system isn't even in the running as far as problems go.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I figured out what kind of speaker and equipment I liked 50+ years ago when my ears were good, nothing I hear, see or read about now is going to change what I like that a twist of a knob or two won't fix for the whoppin' cost of using the remote (now) to do it, or getting off my ass to turn the knob.

I just picked up a slightly used Mcintosh C53. Do you really think I care about what anyone on planet earth thinks about Mcintosh or if they think they are not worth the money?

Anyone want to buy a 51 Chevy PU, I got to pay for the C53 now. I'm just kidding. I actually paid for over half of the C53 with 200 of the 400lbs of change I had in buckets around the house. If I wasn't so tired of rolling nickels, dimes, and quarters I probably could have paid for the whole thing that way.

I'm surprised this thread had so many responses, to tell the truth. Maybe go feed the ducks or something or go pick some fresh wild FREE mustard greens.

Regards

About that Fish carburetor, had a funny discussion in high school (1970s). A math teacher who should have known better was telling people how her cousin bought a new car and it was getting 205 mpg. They came and took the car back. It got out as a mistake. Some special carb. I spoke up and said, "wait a minute. Gasoline engines are about 25% thermally efficient and that would mean the carb was causing that engine to improve at least 1000% more mileage when the chemical energy in the gasoline was only a 400% increase. How can it make energy?" The chemistry teacher was in the room. He started laughing and said, "he's one of my better chemistry students. I think his math checks out too."

PS this isn't even off topic. Snake oil is snake oil.

 

[pderousse]

Skis, bikes, cars, motorcycles, golf clubs, RC cars even - audio is not unique for snake oil. The ritual seems to cut across obsessions: 1) remove a part on the assumption that the engineers who made it, had no clue what they were doing, and 2) replace it with a different looking after-market version (that may perform worse),and 3) as a second best, if you can’t afford the after market replacements, repaint the OEM part in a different color, then bolt it back on.

I’d say your question says more about consumer psychology (boys with legos), than it does about snake-oil suppliers.

 

[smowry]

So anyway, I will open a new thread on the topic of a technical discussion of the Borresen ironless motor; however, as one will see, the Borresen ironless motor is in a sense snake oil. That transducer implementation is not robust and is potentially problematic. The motor has been under-designed, over-rated, and over-priced. Those are at least in part, characteristics of snake oil products!

 

[gilency]

100%

I don't understand why some folks get upset when someone else does something that doesn't harm anyone but they think is wrong.

Extend the snake oil thinking to vaccines or public health and you will quickly see how harmless thinking can become unhealthy or dangerous.

 

[smowry]

Extend the snake oil thinking to vaccines or public health and you will quickly see how harmless thinking can become unhealthy or dangerous.

Well put and that's the basis for the Elizabeth Holmes / Elizabeth Michael Borresen Analogy. Outstanding post gilency.

 

[mhardy6647]

About that Fish carburetor, had a funny discussion in high school (1970s). A math teacher who should have known better was telling people how her cousin bought a new car and it was getting 205 mpg. They came and took the car back. It got out as a mistake. Some special carb. I spoke up and said, "wait a minute. Gasoline engines are about 25% thermally efficient and that would mean the carb was causing that engine to improve at least 1000% more mileage when the chemical energy in the gasoline was only a 400% increase. How can it make energy?" The chemistry teacher was in the room. He started laughing and said, "he's one of my better chemistry students. I think his math checks out too."

PS this isn't even off topic. Snake oil is snake oil.

Good ol' thermodynamics puts the kibosh on so many innovative ideas and products...

 

[Mr. Widget]

Extend the snake oil thinking to vaccines or public health and you will quickly see how harmless thinking can become unhealthy or dangerous.

You are ignoring an important condition. In my statement I stated, "that doesn't harm anyone"... ignoring science in public health will often cause harm. That is the difference.

 

[gilency]

I am merely pointing that snake oil can be harmless in certain disciplines and harmful in others. The fallacy and illogic of snake oil is pervasive and the facts that it exists in audio is just an extension of magical thinking that extends everywhere. Harmless here, harmful there. The illogic of it anywhere is bad. Harmless? Thousands of dollars that poor souls expend in useless audio trinkets. Poor economics for those who buy. Poor illogical exercise that extends to other realms.

 

[Mr. Widget]

The fallacy and illogic of snake oil is pervasive and the facts that it exists in audio is just an extension of magical thinking that extends everywhere.

100%

Harmless here, harmful there. The illogic of it anywhere is bad. Harmless? Thousands of dollars that poor souls expend in useless audio trinkets. Poor economics for those who buy. Poor illogical exercise that extends to other realms.

But within the realm of audio who are we to tell others where value exists?

For the fellow who bought this mess, for all we know he looks at it and it brings him joy. At the end of the day, as long as no one trips over it, and as long as the buyer feels he gets value from the purchase, then it is not evil. You and I may think it is a stupid waste of raw materials and capital, but it is not for us to judge.

We can be pleased that we don't have to live with this over priced junk to make us happy.

 

[gilency]

I agree with you on this.