Why are there no DACs with hdmi input ?

[NCX]

With my Audiolab M-DAC, blu-ray played via PC and consoles only outputs a 16 bit signal over optical without an HDMI extractor which works with the PS4 and Xbox One S, but not the X which is still stuck at 16 bit. A 24 bit signal reduces the sibilance with my Beyer T90's, specifically with Xbox One S dashboard switching which is obviously sibilant at 16 bit, and sibliance free at 24 bit. Oddly the PS3 supports 24 bit with games and Netflix over optical without an HDMI extractor.

I also have the original Essence HDACC, but it is limited to 1080p and the new version's signal to noise ratio is below average.

The Bryston is way too expensive and so is the NAD M51 which isn't worth it which leaves HDMI extractors as the only reasonable choice.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I should have mentioned - "reasonably priced" dacs. (under $500)

... and you may want to add Mch HDMI.
There is the MiniDSP NanoAvr, HDMI 1.4, discontinued (300USD).
And there is the Raspi4 with two Hdmi ports and access to I2S... I am not sure how they do their licensing.... But there is no software out yet using the HDMI port for input (AFIK).

Btw: Finding an ADC with HDMI out is even more difficult, a Mch ADC with HDMI out seems not to exist (there are not many uses, agreed, except digitizing old Quad records..)

 

[P_M]

Few people need HDMI for 2-ch audio - hardly any sources that only provide HDMI out for music.

But most people do prefer to have just one cable/connection whether they put in a CD for 2-ch music or a Blu-Ray for multi-ch movie.
I was however making a bad assumption on my part somehow that hdmi was a better (jitter free) transport for 2-ch audio and much better than old spdif. Good thing I didn't throw away those old optical and coax cables yet

Great question that not enough reviewers are asking. Wwenzes response plus this thread help answer that. Tldr; cost+hdcp+worse signal performance means no benefit for music.

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-deep-dive-into-hdmi-audio-performance.56/

Thanks Beershaun, that will make for some good reading and enlightenment.

 

[Beershaun]

Few people need HDMI for 2-ch audio - hardly any sources that only provide HDMI out for music.
Few people do multi-channel audio - USB is a license-free alternative, DSD is decoded in the DAC and does not require HDMI

I don't think that's true anymore. Streaming media devices like Fire TV, Roku, and AppleTV are fantastic sources for music that people are using in their homes because of the native app support for popular services like spotify, Apple Music, Youtube, Tidal, Amazon Music etc. And they have a huge installed base and are cheap. And they only have HDMI out. Audio makers beyond AVRs should be figuring out how to address these. The Android based devices are limited by the OS not allowing out bitperfect audio and resampling everything to 16/48khz. There are working solutions for Android phones though that should be portable to android based streaming media devices, if OEMs would consider it and allow it.

 

[Xulonn]

The Emotiva MC-700 or IOTAVX AVX1 (clones of each other inside) are in the $600-$800 range when they have to do all of this.

Not quite clones - but the back panel shows that they obviously share modules. Interesting that the Emotiva has USB input where the IOTAVX has an extension port for Bluetooth, and the IOTAVX has a dimmer sharing port and the Emotiva does not. They are both basically "airboxes" with the width and height of the cases determined by the space needed for the desired configuration for the connector array.

I bought the $900 IOTAVX rather than the $700 Emotiva because I wanted XLR outputs It's well made, attractive (to me) and everything works as advertised. I really like it - definitely no buyer's remorse.

Interesting that the one with USB input - a reason for having XLR connections to reduce/eliminate possible hum and noise - is the one that doesn't have XLR outputs! But I have no clue as to whether HDMI, like USB, can also have potential hum and noise problems.

 

[Vasr]

Not quite clones - but the back panel shows that they obviously share modules.

Actually exact same boards inside.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...he-rise-of-audio-negociants.14384/post-443543

 

[Xulonn]

Actually exact same boards inside.

Sorry if I seem pedantic, but this is a science-based forum, and accuracy and precision are valued in science and engineering, fields where I worked in research and development, as well as technical sales, for many years prior to my retirement more than ten years ago. I have too much time on my hands, and enjoy detailed discussions.

"Clone" implies exactly and precisely the same, and I think you would agree that while the circuits may be precise clones, there may be some minor, non-circuit customization present. Based on the fact that the subject printed circuit boards have the AVP "manufacturer's" name printed on them and minor differences in I/O configuration are present with the boards attached to the back panel, I was assuming that Emotiva and IOTAVX were using PCBs from the same supplier with the same circuitry and minor superficial differences. Such "customizations" of "modular stock designs" are very common, and inexpensive to implement in the world of modern CAD/CAM technology and "commoditized" manufacturing of both mechanical and electronic components.

I am in the process of assembling inexpensive "high-fidelity" - Ghent/ICEpower 200ASC/200AC amplifiers for my own use - clones if you will. I say that because I am aware that a few "audiophile" component manufacturers including Cary, Bel Canto, and Jeff Rowland used earlier versions of these exact same modules (some were the more powerful 300ASC version) in some rather expensive "entry level" amplifiers a few years ago. You can buy one of these amplifiers in a "non-working" parts-only condition sale, replace the ICEpower boards, have a "like-new" audiophile amplifier! Even today, major manufacturers like Teac are utilizing "customized" Hypex amplifier modules. Clones and semi-clones are found everywhere.

Also of note, the on-screen configuration interface for my IOTAVX AVP firmware is quite generic and primitive, with no branding visible. It reminds me of PFS Write - my first white on blue word processor that ran under DOS 2.1 on my first IBM PC. I suspect that any and all AVPs using these circuit designs have identical configuration screens. Any variations in the setup software would add complexity to the support chain. (But I am simply guessing about this and do not know for sure.)

I am not complaining - I like the benefit of good products for a reasonable price that such manufacturing methods provide. And I don't get upset over a bit of hype in advertising and sales pitches, because in the modern consumer world, flat-out honesty can get you crushed by outrageously dishonest competitors. Forums like ASR can help us make good purchasing decisions, and sort through the hyperbole and exaggerations that dominate modern consumer society. OTOH, I do not like outright lying, which constitutes fraud, and prefer to not do business with liars.

 

[Vasr]

Sorry if I seem pedantic, but this is a science-based forum, and accuracy and precision are valued in science and engineering, fields where I worked in research and development, as well as technical sales, for many years prior to my retirement more than ten years ago. I have too much time on my hands, and enjoy detailed discussions.

"Clone" implies exactly and precisely the same, and I think you would agree that while the circuits may be precise clones, there may be some minor, non-circuit customization present.

Oh my! My apologies. I seem to have offended you. Didn't mean to.

Next we will be demanding accuracy and precision in the exact meaning of a decapitated panther since it is ASR.

It is a white-labeled OEM box from an Asian vendor supplied to specs for the brands (like Whirlpool supplying washers to Sears in the past sold as Kenmore with a few different knobs and controls) and the placement of those knobs. Not built from OEMed circuit boards. Frankly, I am not even sure IOTAVX has an engineering team, just a branding and marketing team. As far as I know, Emotiva didn't involve any of their engineering in it other than for evaluation and acceptance criterion/tests. They both use the same firmware which does not have appeared to have changed much in UI or function from its introduction in UMC1 or the NuForce AVP-18 back in 2012. Only updates of the I/O boards.

I am not discouraging and encouraging any of these, depends on the purpose. It has suited your needs and that is good regardless of how it came about.

From a consumer point of view, if one has some technical issue, it is more than likely the other has the same issue so one can look at reviews of both. They are both likely to measure exactly the same using the same DAC chip and components.

Forums like ASR can help us make good purchasing decisions, and sort through the hyperbole and exaggerations that dominate modern consumer society. OTOH, I do not like outright lying, which constitutes fraud, and prefer to not do business with liars.

My thread on negociants was pointing out that IOTAVX was indeed engaging in market-speak when they claimed it is a successor to the AV1 with which it shares absolutely nothing and that it was designed ground up which clearly it isn't - not by IOTAVX - hyperbole or a lie depending on how one sets the bar. Those are subjective opinions not objective measurements!

Enjoy your unit. I would have bought it myself or the MC-700 if there hadn't been so many reports for the latter in the HDMI handling.

 

[Xulonn]

Oh my! My apologies. I seem to have offended you. Didn't mean to.

No offense taken - I like spirited discussions. And I definitely appreciate your input!

However, I have found one quirk in the IOTAVX AVP that is annoying - if I turn on the AVP before my Intel NUC8i7 HTPC is putting out an HDMI signal, the IOTAVX doesn't seem to connect and pass the video to my LCD TV, and I have to turn both off and boot the PC first. Otherwise, everything else works fine.

 

[Vasr]

However, I have found one quirk in the IOTAVX AVP that is annoying - if I turn on the AVP before my Intel NUC8i7 HTPC is putting out an HDMI signal, the IOTAVX doesn't seem to connect and pass the video to my LCD TV, and I have to turn both off and boot the PC first. Otherwise, everything else works fine.

Yes, that is a known problem with the MC-700 (in addition to source switching issues that will not manifest unless you are switching sources much) that I alluded to earlier. I would expect both show the same strengths and bugs.

There are 3 years worth of discussions on this with still unresolved issues.

https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/49171/mc-700-issues-thread

 

[Digital Mastering System]

I would really like Amir to test the Outlaw 976.

 

[beefkabob]

Related Question:

Since "most" DACs have USB inputs now...

Why don't (name anything except a PC or phone) have USB outputs? Or do they?

(maybe some streamers do, but nothing in my rack has a USB output to connect to the DAC)

To control a USB out, you need a mini computer. Then your have to integrate a bunch of software and hardware. Then you have to deal with incompatible products. It would add a lot of costs beyond just hardware. And USB is not generally designed for video. Sure there are usbc video out ports, but those are relatively new. Video on USB 3 is severely limited in bandwidth.

 

[Vasr]

Most pro audio equipment use USB as they either need multiple channels or have digitized data and like the two-way capability which is its biggest advantage.

HDMI makes no sense to them as they do no video. There isn’t any other viable alternative than USB. USB has also made the midi interface extinct. Firewire, etc., never caught on.

DACs don’t want to pay HDMI licensing unless video is a selling point and most of them came from the desktop world where USB was almost always guaranteed to be there. Besides, that is the only option for uncompressed multi-channel audio without lossy encoding.

Equipment intended for media centers have not had USBs for a long time as there wasn’t a sufficient need to justify it. Typically no PC near by. But streaming use cases and mobile electronics has changed that somewhat and so more and more media-center units are getting USB for digital audio (not just for system maintenance and upgrades).

 

[m8o]

The Bryston is way too expensive and so is the NAD M51 which isn't worth it which leaves HDMI extractors as the only reasonable choice.

The M51 regularly sells for $1K or well under used. It's how I got mine. I use it via HDMI almost exclusively. ... well worth it imo.

 

[NCX]

The M51 regularly sells for $1K or well under used. It's how I got mine. I use it via HDMI almost exclusively. ... well worth it imo.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ments-of-nad-m51-dac-and-digital-preamp.6681/

I don't find this performance acceptable @ >100$

 

[rudy]

Not quite clones - but the back panel shows that they obviously share modules. Interesting that the Emotiva has USB input where the IOTAVX has an extension port for Bluetooth, and the IOTAVX has a dimmer sharing port and the Emotiva does not. They are both basically "airboxes" with the width and height of the cases determined by the space needed for the desired configuration for the connector array.

I bought the $900 IOTAVX rather than the $700 Emotiva because I wanted XLR outputs It's well made, attractive (to me) and everything works as advertised. I really like it - definitely no buyer's remorse.

Interesting that the one with USB input - a reason for having XLR connections to reduce/eliminate possible hum and noise - is the one that doesn't have XLR outputs! But I have no clue as to whether HDMI, like USB, can also have potential hum and noise problems.

View attachment 73068
View attachment 73069

when my Oppo passes i will get one

 

[Pbnmjk]

The only one problem I see, it's necessary an HDMI input in a DAC to play SACD through, but it isn't covered by DACs under $1.000 or $500.

 

[rudy]

time for NAD to step up to the plate and update the M51 and the excellent D1050 which i recently compared to the Mytek Liberty which was not much better. imagine a 7 year old DAC on par with the Liberty. looking for something that is a clear upgrade.

 

[yves75]

I was asking myself the same questions (or more integrated audio dac/amp boxes) as alternatives to the big AVR boxes.

Although there are some like the bluesound node or powernode, and the sonos amp for instance.

But more generally, what is the benefit of the AVRs being a pass through for video ?
Compared to a pure audio box connected by HDMI eARC to the TV ?

Currently I don't think people expect much of the AVRs in terms of video processing (done by the TV, or sources such as shield or apple TV).

So is there a key benefit in having the AVR receive video + Audio ? Video/audio synchronization ?
(single hdmi cable to the TV could be seen as one maybe, but any really "functional" benefit ?)

 

[Yorkshire Mouth]

What are the fees for HDMI?
Annual Fee
HDMI Adopters must pay an annual fee of fifteen thousand dollars (US$15,000). The annual fee is due upon the execution of the Adopter Agreement, and must be paid on the anniversary of this date each year thereafter. Note that HDMI does provide an alternative annual fee payment for small-volume manufacturers (10,000 units or less). Please see Attachment B of the Adopter Agreement for details.
Royalty
HDMI is available for a reasonable royalty rate as follows:

• For each end-user Licensed Product, fifteen cents (US$0.15) per unit sold.
• If the Adopter reasonably uses the HDMI logo on the product and promotional materials, then the rate drops to five cents (US$0.05) per unit sold.
• If the Adopter implements HDCP content protection as set forth in the HDMI Specification, then the royalty rate is further reduced by one cent (US $.01) per unit sold, for a lowest rate of four cents (.04) per unit. Adopters must license HDCP separately from Digital Content Protection, LLC, an Intel subsidiary. Please see www.digital-cp.com for details.

http://car.france3.mars.free.fr/HD/INA- 26 jan 06/Conf CST HDMI/HDMI-2/faq.asp.html

Im not saying that’s wrong. But if it’s the case, how come we see so many cheap HDMI extractors? They’re a hugely niche product, so I can’t believe they sell in large quantities. And, given their low price, you’d have to sell a lot to pay back the fees and make them viable.