Why are single drivers disliked to such an extent by most in this forum?

[computer-audiophile]

By the way, the Quad ESL were originally also mono speakers. Perhaps it would be better to leave it at that.

Photo taken from the web:

 

[fpitas]

By the way, the Quad ESL were originally also mono speakers. Perhaps it would be better to leave it at that.

Photo taken from the web:

Stereo is just a flash in the pan

 

[mhardy6647]

By the way, the Quad ESL were originally also mono speakers. Perhaps it would be better to leave it at that.

Photo taken from the web:

Note the camoflauge maifest in the decor of that room. A lion or other apex predator will be confused and fail to eat the two humans.
Beastly clever, those Brits!

I think the chatter on electrostatics in this thread has made this pretty clear -- the "full range" electrostatics mostly had (have?) at least two panels and a crossover. Others have been, in essence, extended-range drivers, augmented with a "sub" woofer, at the least.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Now, not joking: An acquaintance from a German analog audio forum, an old audiophile who really knows his stuff and owned and studied a lot of equipment, comes back to mono surround sound and mixes stereo to mono accordingly. He uses one omnidirectional speaker. He simply wants to move freely in the room and not sit somewhere in one place - so his reasoning. Besides, there would be improved coherence.

 

[tuga]

This is a very interesting observation, and it correlates somewhat with my experience. I have both a set of two-way speakers and a set of single-drive speakers in a bad room. I experience much less listening fatigue when listening to the single driver speaker.

Please note that this is my own reflections on the topic, but I am wondering if the step response is relevant here. The single driver speaker has a perfect step response by design, and the two-way speaker is, due to the crossover, first firing the tweeter and then the woofer, not producing a single wavefront to the listener. From psycho-acoustic research we know that humans are extremely good at handling and separating direct sound from speakers and reflections by "assembling" the music using the brain. It is believed that this process are one of the contributors to listening fatigue. However, the reflections from a two-way speaker will be more complex due to the time-delay and phase-issues from the two-way speaker. I know that this is controversial for several members of this forum, as some research indicates that step-response is not a big factor in speaker design. But, these tests are done for a very limited time-span, and listeners will for this reason not experience listener fatigue.

The soundstage and more "relaxed" sound from the single driver is something I appreciate, and I can separate them from the two-way speakers each and every time. However, for more complex music, I tend to choose the two-way speakers.

There's a few multi-way speakers with perfect step response (Duntech, Meadowlark, Thiel, Vandersteen, PSI Audio, Kii, Dutch & Dutch).

I have ticked the single-driver speaker box but the topology is massively flawed and I will never own another pair. But I'll miss the looks of my piano gloss standmounts with the chinese Diatone P610 clone w/ leather surrounds:

 

[computer-audiophile]

I have ticked the single-driver speaker box but the topology his massively falwed and I will never own another pair. But I'll miss the looks of my piano gloss standmounts with the chinese Diatone P610 clone w/ leather surrounds:

Did you not listen to these, before you bought them? Especially for speakers from the store, which are not quite cheap, I think this is essential.

 

[tuga]

Did you not listen to these, before you bought them? Especially for speakers from the store, which are not quite cheap, I think this is essential.

I buy used or ex-demo, the resale loss is minimal. I've not yet owned any electrostatic or magnetic planar speakers.
Also, I don't think that one can get any meaningful feedback from listening in a store or show.

 

[computer-audiophile]

... I've not yet owned any electrostatic or magnetic planar speakers.
Also, I don't think that one can get any meaningful feedback from listening in a store or show.

This varies from case to case. I was a few times at the Quadfest of the company in the following link and know the owner and the people. There you can really listen to the Quad electrostats in peace and make your own judgement.

https://www.quad-musik-shop.de/en

Once I met there Professor Jürg Jecklin again (R.I.P) which was another audio V.I.P from Europe. From him I read his "Lautsprecherbuch" (working principle, construction, housing and characteristics of modern loudspeakers) and I also once owned a then futuristic electrostatic headphone he had designed, the 'Jecklin Float'.

This is my photo from this situation with Jürg. In the background there can be seen a Quad ESL double stack configuration + special Subwoofer. This is also exactly the configuration that my friend has and that I had mentioned before.

 

[SivKiv]

I don't know of any other way to create sound then pistonic motion, do you?

DML's and BMR's, they use a sort of "exciter" on a panel/diaphragm. I am not well-informed on how they produce sound, but they promise a directivity wider than "standard" designs with the same diameter.

 

[SivKiv]

View attachment 288303

Oh, what exactly is being done here?

 

[fpitas]

Oh, what exactly is being done here?

MTMing the 511 horn with a quad of SEAS midrange drivers. The SEAS side-by-side arrangement horizontal polar pattern matches that of the horn at the 770Hz crossover. The MTM vertical pattern at 770Hz is about 40 degrees. Using an in-phase (LR4) crossover means the drivers are in-phase and radiate in a point-source manner. Although the concept dates from the 80s, it has become popular with the latest breed of studio monitors such as the Genelec 8381A. The SEAS are crossed over at 110Hz baffle step to the 15" woofer, to minimize doppler distortion.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Returning to the subject of full-range loudspeakers: With many full-range speakers, one is tempted to extend the frequency range either downward or upward by adding either a subwoofer or a super tweeter. This is what I did with my Greencone speakers, for example.

The Lii-Audio F15, which has been mentioned here several times, doesn't really need it. It can also do bass. I think that the Doppler effect is also minimal, because the membrane does not have to make much excursion.

 

[sarumbear]

DML's and BMR's, they use a sort of "exciter" on a panel/diaphragm. I am not well-informed on how they produce sound, but they promise a directivity wider than "standard" designs with the same diameter.

I don't know what those acronyms mean but if there is a panel or diaphragm that moves that is a piston action. A piston doesn't have to be a circle.

 

[tuga]

I think that the Doppler effect is also minimal, because the membrane does not have to make much excursion.

Are you able to measure IMD? It would be interesting to compare full-range with low-passed and band-passed.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I don't know of any other way to create sound then pistonic motion, do you?

This, maybe?

plasma tweeter

The proprietary CORONA plasma tweeter, available only from us, forms the centerpiece of our loudspeaker systems.

www.lansche-audio.com

Jim

 

[computer-audiophile]

Are you able to measure IMD? It would be interesting to compare full-range with low-passed and band-passed.

No, I no longer have any measuring devices worth mentioning at all. The time of extensive experiments is over for me. My statement merely referred to the consideration that such a large full range driver as the F15 must make smaller cone amplitudes than a small one, to achieve the same SPL. I think that the Doppler effect is less then.

 

[sarumbear]

This, maybe?

plasma tweeter

The proprietary CORONA plasma tweeter, available only from us, forms the centerpiece of our loudspeaker systems.

www.lansche-audio.com

Jim

I should have qualified with audible range. There had been band limited solutions but none covered the full audio range.

Otherwise, there had been band limited solutions that worked well.

 

[SivKiv]

I don't know what those acronyms mean but if there is a panel or diaphragm that moves that is a piston action. A piston doesn't have to be a circle.

They stand for Distributed Mode Loudspeakers and Balanced Mode Radiators.

 

[jhaider]

The big problem with alnico was cost. That's why everybody went to ferrite. These days, most new pro drivers seem to use neodymium, because it's relatively cheap, compact and other than the gobs of steel for the magnetic circuit, light.

Supply chain shock (IIRC civil war in the DR Congo) and cost, but they have another big disadvantage - demagnetization.

See, e.g. https://greatplainsaudio.com/alnico-magnets-degaussing-losing-magnetic-field/

Maybe when a 30W amp was big time that was less of an issue than now, when I think it’s fair to say 200W is a more common figure.

Just saw these in the Stereophile newsletter: https://www.stereophile.com/content/voxativ-revisits-its-roots-mid-der-ampeggio

I think this driver may have been originally designed by Mark Dodd, who is better known for first reinventing the Tannoy Dual Concentric with his "tulip waveguide" units and then reinventing the KEF Uni-Q in its current form.

Point being, if an industry titan such as Mark Dodd can't reinvent the single dynamic driver system into something competent, probably nobody can!

 

[tuga]

I should have qualified with audible range. There had been band limited solutions but none covered the full audio range.

Otherwise, there had been band limited solutions that worked well.

View attachment 288402

I've always wondered about the group delay of that thing.