Why are single drivers disliked to such an extent by most in this forum?

[computer-audiophile]

Addendum to #265:

Now I found a photo of my Braun LE1 in an old backup archive. But here they stand only provisionally in a corner in a side room. I always say: pics or it did not happen.

 

[sweetsounds]

oh you mean one cone that does it all 20-20?

have you got a commercial example that you would consider to be decent?

Cube Audio Nenuphar
Measurements

Quite listenable, it sounds interesting, a very homogenous sound-field for voices, but clearly missing bass and highs. It's physics.

They don't reproduce complex music well.

 

[Duke]

Electrostats to my knowledge don't do bass very well.

In general I think this is correct, however SoundLab's large fullrange electrostats are an exception as far a bass extension goes. Disclaimer - I'm a dealer.

A couple of decades ago I delivered a pair of SoundLabs to a customer who was skeptical about their bass extension claims. He had told me in advance he was going to measure them and that if they failed to meet their claimed low-end response in his room, he would refuse them and demand a refund. My recollection is that the factory claimed extension down to 25 Hz or so, but the spec sheet did not specify how many dB down they would be at that frequency.

Given the amount of money involved, I was quite nervous when he put on a test disc and pulled out his Radio Shack SPL meter at the end of the set-up session.

I don't remember which test disc he used, whether it had 1/3 octave pink noise bands or 1/3 octave warble tones, but it was one or the other. His measurements showed the SoundLabs to be -3 dB in the 25 Hz region and -6 dB in the 20 Hz region. He was a bit disappointed that they weren't "flat" all the way down but decided to keep them. Whew!

Then as I was driving home, I remembered that the Radio Shack SPL meter is not "flat" at very low frequencies. I looked it up when I got home and the Radio Shack meter is something like 4 dB down at 25 Hz and (I remember this clearly ->) 6 dB down at 20 Hz! So once the correction was applied, the SoundLabs evidently WERE "flat" to 20 Hz in his room!

Subjectively (which I know means nothing in this site) I would say SoundLabs have superb pitch definition down low, but lack bass "impact" relative to what a large, high-quality box speaker can do.

Anyway I am NOT disagreeing with your generalization that electrostats don't do bass very well, but sometimes it is the exceptions to the rule that are the most interesting. (And just in case you missed my previous posts, the SoundLabs actually ARE single-driver full-range speakers, though admittedly electrostatic panels the size of a large door are generally NOT what people mean when they say "single-driver speaker".

 

[DonH56]

The big Sound Labs and a number of other large ESLs, as well as the large Magnepans (20/30 series), do go into the 20's Hz but distortion tends to be high (ten's of percent for large bass signals). N.B. I do not have distortion measurements for the Sound Labs; again, they have been hard to find through out my audio journey. The problem is getting sufficient linear excursion, and for bass that usually means big panels.

The RS SPL meter, like most, is not actually full-range. It does C-weighting at best, which is down -3 dB around 30 Hz IIRC. Wideband SPL meters that go to 10 Hz or below are hard to find and very expensive IME. I used a measurement mic good to 5 Hz or so (Earthworks M30) back then; my CSL-calibrated UMIK-1 essentially overlies the MC30's response in my more recent tests.

I vaguely recall a friend experimenting with extending the excursion of his home-made ESLs by using a TV flyback transformer circuit (I was guilty of providing that) to achieve something like 20~25 kV across the panel. Idea being a higher voltage field might improve the maximum excursion. It was not a roaring success... Physics always wins, and at the time (probably late 1970's) neither of us knew better.

 

[computer-audiophile]

SoundLab's large fullrange electrostats

I would have loved to hear these at some point to broaden my experience, but unfortunately none have crossed my path on my audio pilgrimages.

 

[tuga]

My observation has been that listening fatigue tends to set in over time when the spectra of the direct and reflected sounds are significantly different. I am under the impression that there are normally time constraints for controlled blind listening tests which may impede the assessment of slow-onset listening fatigue, at least by listeners of my general skill level. It is also quite possible that trained listeners can detect and identify this much more quickly and reliably than I can.

I have found that highly reflective rooms can lead to listener fatigue. I suspect, perhaps mistakenly, because it changes the balance making the sound perceivably 'brighter', particularly with wide-directivity speakers.
I had such a room and got better results with 3-way (2 horns + bass bin) speakers and (interestingly) single-driver speakers, one of the pairs a semi-omni (similar to the Shahinian Compass).
I also think that some of the tweeters in the speakers I owned produced a more fatiguing sound (i.e. B&W 802 Series 3) but it is difficult to say if the cause was distortion or just elevated treble. The Visaton TL16H I used in the aforementioned horns was high-passed at 10kHz and I could easily endure the sound of +6dB shelving so I think that most of the problem may lie below that frequency.
Electronics and cartridiges can also cause fatigue in my experience.

 

[SivKiv]

I'm all for point source. I just choose to do it the 2023 way instead of the 1933 way

Through Coaxials? Or are there other methods out there?

 

[DoctorRobert]

If you are not too far from Rotterdam (Netherlands) and interested in a single-driver design, this one is on offer:

Heco Direkt Einklang: https://www.correct.nl/products/heco-direkt-einklang-2?_pos=1&_sid=99135e6c0&_ss=r

They are no longer in production, but they sure would look cool in a 50s diner style interior. Preferably with, but not necessarily connected to, a tube amp. If I had a proper man cave, I would be tempted. ;-)

 

[computer-audiophile]

If you are not too far from Rotterdam (Netherlands) and interested in a single-driver design, this one is on offer:

Heco Direkt Einklang: https://www.correct.nl/products/heco-direkt-einklang-2?_pos=1&_sid=99135e6c0&_ss=r

They are no longer in production, but they sure would look cool in a 50s diner style interior. Preferably with, but not necessarily connected to, a tube amp. If I had a proper man cave, I would be tempted. ;-)

Thanks for the mention, that's indeed a good tip for a nice retro style and build wideband box from a reputable German manufacturer with great tradition. I know them* but had not thought to post them here in the thread.

*Seen but not heard.

 

[nowonas]

I have found that highly reflective rooms can lead to listener fatigue. I suspect, perhaps mistakenly, because it changes the balance making the sound perceivably 'brighter', particularly with wide-directivity speakers.
I had such a room and got better results with 3-way (2 horns + bass bin) speakers and (interestingly) single-driver speakers, one of the pairs a semi-omni (similar to the Shahinian Compass).
I also think that some of the tweeters in the speakers I owned produced a more fatiguing sound (i.e. B&W 802 Series 3) but it is difficult to say if the cause was distortion or just elevated treble. The Visaton TL16H I used in the aforementioned horns was high-passed at 10kHz and I could easily endure the sound of +6dB shelving so I think that most of the problem may lie below that frequency.
Electronics and cartridiges can also cause fatigue in my experience.

This is a very interesting observation, and it correlates somewhat with my experience. I have both a set of two-way speakers and a set of single-drive speakers in a bad room. I experience much less listening fatigue when listening to the single driver speaker.

Please note that this is my own reflections on the topic, but I am wondering if the step response is relevant here. The single driver speaker has a perfect step response by design, and the two-way speaker is, due to the crossover, first firing the tweeter and then the woofer, not producing a single wavefront to the listener. From psycho-acoustic research we know that humans are extremely good at handling and separating direct sound from speakers and reflections by "assembling" the music using the brain. It is believed that this process are one of the contributors to listening fatigue. However, the reflections from a two-way speaker will be more complex due to the time-delay and phase-issues from the two-way speaker. I know that this is controversial for several members of this forum, as some research indicates that step-response is not a big factor in speaker design. But, these tests are done for a very limited time-span, and listeners will for this reason not experience listener fatigue.

The soundstage and more "relaxed" sound from the single driver is something I appreciate, and I can separate them from the two-way speakers each and every time. However, for more complex music, I tend to choose the two-way speakers.

 

[sarumbear]

You mention specifically that this is in the case of pistonic motion, would this mean that if sound could be recreated through other forms, or a mix of multiple, would allow a potentially wider range of sound?

I don't know of any other way to create sound then pistonic motion, do you?

 

[fpitas]

Through Coaxials? Or are there other methods out there?

 

[computer-audiophile]

This is a very interesting observation, and it correlates somewhat with my experience. I have both a set of two-way speakers and a set of single-drive speakers in a bad room. I experience much less listening fatigue when listening to the single driver speaker.

Please note that this is my own reflections on the topic, but I am wondering if the step response is relevant here. The single driver speaker has a perfect step response by design, and the two-way speaker is, due to the crossover, first firing the tweeter and then the woofer, not producing a single wavefront to the listener. From psycho-acoustic research we know that humans are extremely good at handling and separating direct sound from speakers and reflections by "assembling" the music using the brain. It is believed that this process are one of the contributors to listening fatigue. However, the reflections from a two-way speaker will be more complex due to the time-delay and phase-issues from the two-way speaker. I know that this is controversial for several members of this forum, as some research indicates that step-response is not a big factor in speaker design. But, these tests are done for a very limited time-span, and listeners will for this reason not experience listener fatigue.

The soundstage and more "relaxed" sound from the single driver is something I appreciate, and I can separate them from the two-way speakers each and every time. However, for more complex music, I tend to choose the two-way speakers.

Perhaps listening with a single good full-range speaker in mono is the least likely to cause listener fatigue. In any case, I don't remember it annoying me.

Here I show a vintage SABA-Lindau radio from my collection, a tube radio that had a pretty good full range speaker and sound.

 

[computer-audiophile]

By the way, the Quad ESL were originally also mono speakers. Perhaps it would be better to leave it at that.

Photo taken from the web:

 

[fpitas]

By the way, the Quad ESL were originally also mono speakers. Perhaps it would be better to leave it at that.

Photo taken from the web:

Stereo is just a flash in the pan

 

[mhardy6647]

By the way, the Quad ESL were originally also mono speakers. Perhaps it would be better to leave it at that.

Photo taken from the web:

Note the camoflauge maifest in the decor of that room. A lion or other apex predator will be confused and fail to eat the two humans.
Beastly clever, those Brits!

I think the chatter on electrostatics in this thread has made this pretty clear -- the "full range" electrostatics mostly had (have?) at least two panels and a crossover. Others have been, in essence, extended-range drivers, augmented with a "sub" woofer, at the least.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Now, not joking: An acquaintance from a German analog audio forum, an old audiophile who really knows his stuff and owned and studied a lot of equipment, comes back to mono surround sound and mixes stereo to mono accordingly. He uses one omnidirectional speaker. He simply wants to move freely in the room and not sit somewhere in one place - so his reasoning. Besides, there would be improved coherence.

 

[tuga]

This is a very interesting observation, and it correlates somewhat with my experience. I have both a set of two-way speakers and a set of single-drive speakers in a bad room. I experience much less listening fatigue when listening to the single driver speaker.

Please note that this is my own reflections on the topic, but I am wondering if the step response is relevant here. The single driver speaker has a perfect step response by design, and the two-way speaker is, due to the crossover, first firing the tweeter and then the woofer, not producing a single wavefront to the listener. From psycho-acoustic research we know that humans are extremely good at handling and separating direct sound from speakers and reflections by "assembling" the music using the brain. It is believed that this process are one of the contributors to listening fatigue. However, the reflections from a two-way speaker will be more complex due to the time-delay and phase-issues from the two-way speaker. I know that this is controversial for several members of this forum, as some research indicates that step-response is not a big factor in speaker design. But, these tests are done for a very limited time-span, and listeners will for this reason not experience listener fatigue.

The soundstage and more "relaxed" sound from the single driver is something I appreciate, and I can separate them from the two-way speakers each and every time. However, for more complex music, I tend to choose the two-way speakers.

There's a few multi-way speakers with perfect step response (Duntech, Meadowlark, Thiel, Vandersteen, PSI Audio, Kii, Dutch & Dutch).

I have ticked the single-driver speaker box but the topology is massively flawed and I will never own another pair. But I'll miss the looks of my piano gloss standmounts with the chinese Diatone P610 clone w/ leather surrounds:

 

[computer-audiophile]

I have ticked the single-driver speaker box but the topology his massively falwed and I will never own another pair. But I'll miss the looks of my piano gloss standmounts with the chinese Diatone P610 clone w/ leather surrounds:

Did you not listen to these, before you bought them? Especially for speakers from the store, which are not quite cheap, I think this is essential.

 

[tuga]

Did you not listen to these, before you bought them? Especially for speakers from the store, which are not quite cheap, I think this is essential.

I buy used or ex-demo, the resale loss is minimal. I've not yet owned any electrostatic or magnetic planar speakers.
Also, I don't think that one can get any meaningful feedback from listening in a store or show.