Why are single drivers disliked to such an extent by most in this forum?

[nowonas]

I have a pair of Seas fulltone speakers, and the cost/performance ratio is really good. I am using CamillaDSP to equalise them which is necessary to balance the speakers and achieve a nice looking frequency plot. The advantages with fulltone speakers in my opinion are:

-They allow for a very low or no crossover at all, avoiding problems where the hearing is most sensitive
-Point-source which (in my opinion) produce a phenomenal soundstage
-Phase coherent speakers by design

I am crossing at 250hz using FIR filters, and the fulltone is playing from 250hz and upwards. This greatly reduces the IMD, and when I measure my speaker, it has as low distortion as any other speaker with a woofer and tweeter (see https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/seas-fa22rcz-8-fullrange-driver for driver measurements)

Regarding beaming, I think that many people are considering this as a bigger issue than what it is in real life. I have a very problematic room, so a speaker that beams have a smaller room contribution compared to a speaker with high directivity.

I think that many audiophiles are underrating the disadvantages with analog crossovers, and should try active or speakers with no crossovers to hear what difference it makes.

 

[SDC]

Including almost fullrange, celestion CD goes down to 300hz with single diaphragm.

But personally, The Ones and Synergy horns make single driver fullrange speakers useless each with digital and analog XOs.

And the point source magic, IMO useless. Worth listening, learning there is nothing special to it compared to properly made speakers.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Enjoying the Lii-15 sound?

Yes, the sound was really good, without any tricks, linearization, elaborate boxes and the like. I got a few other audio friends to buy these and to try them out themselves. Most of them were happy. A colleague from a German forum was so enthusiastic about it that he started an audio company and now makes speakers with the F15.

The time when I myself experimented a lot with full-range speakers has actually been over for many years. But since I never had such a big 15" solo fullrange driver, and since the Lii-Audio's F15s aren't that expensive either, I wanted to try them out for once, just to see. I find the Lii-Audio product portfolio interesting today.

As I don't like having too much audio stuff sitting around the apartment anymore, I gave them away again when I convinced myself they were very good. My wife still cries for my beautiful speaker columns with the Greencones, she can't understand why I don't keep my successful pieces. But I'm the type to move on and make new things. I can't keep everything, it will grow over my head.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

The question itself is ridiculous.
Who knows what someone does not like and to what extent.
Especially since this is not a forum for people who are keen on full range speakers.
Enthusiastic people are well aware of the shortcomings of these speakers, therefore it is better to ask such people exactly, and the question of merits is more interesting.

In my humble experience, full range is the best option for DIY high-quality speakers.
Multi-ways are too complex and so expensive that it is almost always better to buy something ready-made.
But gaining experience is priceless, so the experience in full range design and implementation is real pleasure.
I made my speakers based on this design and Mark Audio Alpair 7 MS:

Tapered Wave Tube with Damp-Duct (TWTD) + Pluvia7HD

Driver is mounted 1:1 and damp-duct 1:5. Sound absorbing material is minimal. http://pavane.sakura.ne.jp/driftgranturismo/diyAudio/TWTD-10T-05.jpg http://pavane.sakura.ne.jp/driftgranturismo/diyAudio/TWTD-10T-04.jpg http://pavane.sakura.ne.jp/driftgranturismo/diyAudio/TWTD-10T-11.jpg...

www.diyaudio.com

To begin with, I I recalculated the original design to the new dimensions and ruined 2 3.5 centimeters thick furniture beech sheets measuring 2x4 meters
(I knew this would happen because I had very limited woodworking experience)
But the most exciting part was the damping
It was very long but not exhausting, on the contrary, even fun.
What is the result?
I like the way it sounds (jazz and bass is just great), I like the design, I like the cabinet's material, now I can work with a router, with a circular saw, I have a decent workshop.
It turned out not cheap and long, but there are no second such speakers in the world.

And the last thing in the world I care about who does not like what and to what extent.
And this is the right way.

 

[Vann]

Yes, the sound was really good, without any tricks, linearization, elaborate boxes and the like. I got a few other audio friends to buy these and to try them out themselves. Most of them were happy. A colleague from a German forum was so enthusiastic about it that he started an audio company and now makes speakers with the F15.

The time when I myself experimented a lot with full-range speakers has actually been over for many years. But since I never had such a big 15" solo fullrange driver, and since the Lii-Audio's F15s aren't that expensive either, I wanted to try them out for once, just to see. I find the Lii-Audio product portfolio interesting today.

As I don't like having too much audio stuff sitting around the apartment anymore, I gave them away again when I convinced myself they were very good. My wife still cries for my beautiful speaker columns with the Greencones, she can't understand why I don't keep my successful pieces. But I'm the type to move on and make new things. I can't keep everything, it will grow over my head.

I agree, they are one of the greatest bargains in HiFi.

 

[somebodyelse]

@Jazzman53 details another approach to electrostatic segmentation at https://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com/ - approximating a narrow line source at high frequencies and widening the line as the frequency drops. In that implementation it then crosses over to a cone for the bass, but in principle it could probably scale to go a bit lower.

 

[Blumlein 88]

@Jazzman53 details another approach to electrostatic segmentation at https://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com/ - approximating a narrow line source at high frequencies and widening the line as the frequency drops. In that implementation it then crosses over to a cone for the bass, but in principle it could probably scale to go a bit lower.

That is the kind of segmented approach I wish someone would do commercially.

 

[SivKiv]

If it's not inherent it's tricky enough to solve that nobody has brought one to market yet. From the measurements I've seen, the ones that are large enough to have half-way acceptable bass get messy at the high end, and the ones that do reasonably at the high end can't go much deeper than mid range. I assume it's more difficult to manage the breakup modes with the larger diaphragms.

For the former, is it the 6.5 inch by Cotswold? Or is it another set of drivers

 

[SivKiv]

I take it to mean no crossovers. But I guess it could be construed differently.

Sorry for the late reply, but yep. There's also single drivers with whizzers, but I'm not sure if those can be considered a single driver.

 

[SivKiv]

Here's my guess:
People gauge speaker performance based on negative characteristics that have high audibility. And I don't mean that they do this with a highly analytical attitude, I believe much is at a lower level of consciousness, like a day-to-day thing.
Of the people I have observed, one of the most annoying characteristics is beaming treble. I think it's annoying because it's so very noticeable. It isn't so noticeable if you sit unmoving, but most of the people I know don't like to sit and listen with their "head in a vise", so to speak.
You can partially get around that by reducing the diameter of the driver ..... but then you sacrifice bass and distortion characteristics. Guess what are two more characteristics that annoy people? You guessed it ...... no bass and high distortion!

Speaker systems have many, many different characteristics that are, in comparison, either less audible, less annoying or actually not audible at all. So it's not that the speaker designs we have now are perfect .... far from it. But I believe their characteristics are simply less annoying to most people than wide-band drivers.

Jim

So your main point being, is that for the majority, a 2 way has better compromises than a single driver set?

 

[SivKiv]

The problem with a single driver is physics. You need a large piston for good bass response but a small one for good high frequency response. It’s not possible to have a ten octave range and have acceptable values throughout the range.

You mention specifically that this is in the case of pistonic motion, would this mean that if sound could be recreated through other forms, or a mix of multiple, would allow a potentially wider range of sound?

 

[Jasperous]

Does becoming a single driver loudspeaker designer require the same amount of technical knowledge as designing an open baffle loudspeaker ie none?
Keith

Everytime I read one of your zingers it makes me want to come to your shop all the more, the next time I'm in London

 

[Duke]

Here's my guess:
People gauge speaker performance based on negative characteristics that have high audibility.

Agreed. Paraphrasing @Floyd Toole (because I can't find the exact quote): It not the most virtuous speaker that is preferred; rather, it is the least flawed.

Of the people I have observed, one of the most annoying characteristics is beaming treble. I think it's annoying because it's so very noticeable. It isn't so noticeable if you sit unmoving, but most of the people I know don't like to sit and listen with their "head in a vise", so to speak.

Severe treble beaming can result in a significant spectral discrepancy between the direct and reflected energy. Actually quoting Toole this time:

"If the spectra of the direct and reflected sounds are significantly different, the reflections are likely to be more noticeable, from subtle timbral effects up to a premature breakdown of the precedence effect."

My observation has been that listening fatigue tends to set in over time when the spectra of the direct and reflected sounds are significantly different. I am under the impression that there are normally time constraints for controlled blind listening tests which may impede the assessment of slow-onset listening fatigue, at least by listeners of my general skill level. It is also quite possible that trained listeners can detect and identify this much more quickly and reliably than I can.

 

[SivKiv]

There were other Altec Biflex driver models, as well. 12" and 15" "pro" (PA) and hifi versions.

And, yeah, a pair of 15 inch Altec Biflexes here, too. I don't recall the model, though (and they are in a box in the basement, and it's getting late, and I am preternaturally lazy...)

Fukuin/Pioneer also made smaller dual-compliance cone drivers that were rather similar to the Biflexes.
Besides being sold under the "Pioneer" brand, these were also sold by some US and European (British, at least) catalog retailers (e.g., Lafayette Radio Electronics, in the US).

"Any there, Marky?" I hear you ask.
Ahem.

How would a dual compliance driver like the biflex differ from a whizzer? Mechanically, do they both rely on the same operating principle?

 

[SivKiv]

In my very limited experience ”yes” you get the single acoustic source and in case of for example active KEF’s the phase is compensated via DSP .

But you inherent another problem from fullrange drivers you better make a coax speaker 3 way for best performance and or add sub(s)
The 3 way solution is best , you really want to make the coax driver an optimal Midrange/Tweeter .
For example the shape of the suround is an issue , you don’t want a large half roll like in a big subwoofer driver

So a Coax with a DSP would surpass a single driver on multiple levels I assume?

 

[computer-audiophile]

How would a dual compliance driver like the biflex differ from a whizzer? Mechanically, do they both rely on the same operating principle?

It is obvious that it is not the same. Here another experiment I made.

SABA Greencones with tweeter (whizzer) cone, there is no original, but I found an article in the Funkschau from 1957 with the headline 'Installation of a tweeter cone in a loudspeaker'.

I had the idea for a long time, but had hesitated to sacrifice good old radio drivers from my collection for such an irreversible modification. What the heck - it's worth a try in the horns for me.

 

[SivKiv]

There are two approaches that I know of to use a fullrange that can work competitively to multi-way speakers:
1) Line array

The making of: The Two Towers (a 25 driver Full Range line array)

After riding along on a few different line array threads I figured this project deserved it's own thread. I wanted to get new speakers for my living room for a while but could not quite find something I liked. The speakers I have right now are just too big to use in a proper setup. In a domestic...

www.diyaudio.com

IDS-25 stereo column speaker array

2) Extreme near field (not quite headphones).

What would qualify as extreme nearfield for you?

 

[computer-audiophile]

I also just found this picture in my archive. The two speakers on the left have the modified Greencones installed alone, on the right it's my normal configuration with the SABA Greencone 'Biegewellen'* tweeter.

*I don't know how to translate the word correctly.

 

[Doodski]

I also just found this picture in my archive. The two speakers on the left have the modified Greencones installed alone, on the right it's my normal configuration with the SABA Greencone 'Biegewellen'* tweeter.

*I don't know how to translate the word correctly.

View attachment 287873

I like the cabinetry work. It's very simple and organic too.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I like the cabinetry work. It's very simple and organic too.

Thank you! I have been working on this for a long time. I had demonstrated the first experimental model at a European Triode Festival in 2004, with some success. Audio friends from different countries who had heard them wanted me to build some for them. Ok, I did it. Audio artists and composers have also used them for their own purposes. I must say that I am only an amateur in this field and had no commercial interests.