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Why are modern AV Receivers so terrible?

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#62
......from memory, I recall reading that XT32 just uses IIR filters and Dirac uses FIR and IIR filters.
 

raistlin65

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#63
Many people have reported that it does a far better job with bass management, which is the most important part of RoomEQ, than the regular MultEQ algorithm.
And here's how Audyssey described XT32 when it first came out
"Flavors of MultEQ
Audyssey room correction technology comes in four solutions: MultEQ XT32, MultEQ XT, MultEQ and 2EQ. While they are all built on the same core science, each is designed to operate within the constraints of the available DSP processing power.

MultEQ XT32 Our newest and most accurate room correction solution with more than ten thousand individual control points allowing finer details of the room’s problems to be captured and corrected. The ultra high resolution filters are applied to all channels including the subwoofers, with the most obvious benefit being heard in the low frequency range where correction is needed the most. MultEQ XT Our advanced resolution room correction solution with high resolution equalization filters for satellites and subwoofers. Most products with MultEQ XT are installer-ready and can be calibrated by an Audyssey Registered Installer to provide even higher performance for even the most demanding large or odd-shaped rooms. MultEQ Our standard resolution room correction solution that uses mid-level resolution filters for satellites and subwoofers. 2EQ Our basic resolution room correction solution that uses basic resolution filters for the satellites, but does not apply a filter to the subwoofers."

This table shows the difference in filter resolution (not the # of filters) between the different Audyssey models. Note that 2EQ is no longer available. The filter resolution is the same for subwoofers for MultEQ and MultEQ XT.

audyssey filters.jpg
 

Thomas savage

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#67
In some ways, you can blame Dolby Atmos. By increasing the number of channels, these companies have had to cut more corners to keep prices the same. It was bad enough to stuff 5 amps in one box. Now they do 9, 11 or whatever? The retail channel is brutal in demanding most number of channels and logos so these companies are in survival mode.

I also think many of these products are sold at a loss at the end of the day. So hard for them to invest even more in engineering and design quality.

Oppo was a rare exception in this field and they pulled out.
Yes and unlike games consoles that also can be sold at a loss there's no back end in the usable media to compensate.
 
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#68
Interesting discussion I've been having for years with my AV buddies. ;)

What works for me is I treat the Pre-AMP like any other processor / computer (which it is mostly becoming).. and consider the pre-pro the most disposable item in the mix. Why? I have a full complement of difficult-to-drive (4 ohm) speakers which most "receiver" amps simply cannot drive, properly The speakers are the anchor of my AV setup. This allows me to keep higher quality AMPs in-play while trading up the pre-pro to match the many formats and materials (and convenience) in today's media / streams.

You guys are right! Competitive building and price targets are driving most manufacturers to cut every corner possible. The industry consolidation from a few years ago is not helping. A few "Tier 1" makers try to do a bit better but there is a price limit of their audience target vs those customers in the "if you gotta ask, you probably cannot afford it" realm.

Overall, the Power AMP technology is not changing as fast as the material, streams, processors and computers we are using and viewing. A good quality pre-pros is basically a HDMI switching unit + decoding ASICs, + room EQ software - for those "awful" room dynamics + firmware for the decoders and HDMI video formats - which are changing every 3-5 years. The streams are whatever the market is pushing - especially for HT - Dolby, Atmos, etc... The video resolutions have jumped from 1K to be firmly cost-centered around 4K today and the market is trying to convince everyone that we need 8K next.

History.. I used Pioneer's Elite prepros for many years before they really "dropped-the-ball." Then I switched to Onkyo/Integra Pre/Pro (2011). For this last update, I reviewed so many PrePros until I was dizzy with web-overload - Okyo/Integra, Marantz, Yamaha, Emotiva, Rotel, ... but this time but decided to pass and ended up with an Anthem. Funny thing is like many here, I looked for photos of the insides of most of these units b/c you can sometimes tell a lot just looking at the components and layouts. :) The only reason I upgraded in late 2019 was my 2011 PrePro could not handle 4K HDMI to match the TV I replaced b/c my 14 year old DLP was in the ICU. I just didn't want to rip out the LE and install a new color-wheel in it (again). Plus when the wife said "pull the trigger" I've learned it time to move and move fast!

This discussion is mainly about HT and not the "pure stereo only" options which is yet another branch of this tree. Peace.
 
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Thomas savage

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#69
I'd want the digital Dolby Atmos ( or whatever multichannel decoder) decoded in a box then put out in standard pcm digital to active speakers with digital inputs .

All the room correction and subwoofer integration done in the main processor.

No need for analogue outputs or amps in the box.

But that's just me.
 

StevenEleven

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#70
I have the same one. A couple of weeks ago I've connected my speakers (Dali Ikon 2) and DAC to a Cambridge integrated and I've noted a huge difference in sound quality, especially in the treble area.
A huge difference, eh. In the treble. Good to know that confirmation bias is still alive and well. :) I would have expected better performance in the bass, if anything, if you don’t use powered subwoofers.

Well, maybe not. Ouch. https://www.soundandvision.com/content/dali-ikon-2-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

Ever considered the Pioneer SP BS-22s? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...er-sp-bs22-lr-bookshelf-speaker-review.11303/
 
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#71
A huge difference, eh. In the treble. Good to know that confirmation bias is still alive and well. :) I would have expected better performance in the bass, if anything, if you don’t use powered subwoofers.
I have two subwoofers, and have no reason for confirmation bias, the amp cost me nothing. BTW I was expecting no difference.
 

StevenEleven

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#72
I have two subwoofers, and have no reason for confirmation bias, the amp cost me nothing. BTW I was expecting no difference.
You provided a dubious assertion with no data. I gave a possible explanation and I gave you some hard data to think about. Good luck. :cool:

By the way, with your apparent budget, I’d get something a little nicer than the Pioneers I referenced above. . . But I’d shop carefully. Then, with your integrated (or the Onkyo receiver) and your subwoofers you should be in great shape. ;)
 
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raistlin65

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#74
I have two subwoofers, and have no reason for confirmation bias, the amp cost me nothing. BTW I was expecting no difference.
Expectation bias is about expectation, which means cost to you is not the only influential factor. Brand name or expectation about design differences can equally affect the perception of audio quality. Obviously, you had expectations that an integrated amp would sound better. That's what most people believe.
 

vitalii427

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#76
I have few thoughts on topic.

AVRs are mass market product. This market is highly competitive and great measurements isn’t the winning advantage. Most customers want more features and power for less money.

Market of higher end home theaters is different but they usually professionally installed in most cases. And great measurements isn’t the winning advantage here also.

There’s actually not enough demand for better measuring AVRs and Pre/Pro’s. That’s it I think.

I hope it will change in future.
 

vitalii427

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#77
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#78
^^^^ Ditto. Gut says when you are trying to squeeze that last .0001%... across the board.. you are playing in the 6 figure + range for speakers, amps, etc.. or rather what I call, the "unlimited budget realm".. where if you have enough cash, those boutique guys can build you anything you want at whatever spec you want... Us mortals, it's mass-market and weed out the chaff... :)
 
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