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Why are modern AV Receivers so terrible?

Sancus

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Then I look at receivers and I'm disheartened. I don't want to spend $1,200 on speakers if they're left lethargic by an underperforming receiver. Don't get me wrong, I know performance is expensive. I'm willing to settle for 90% of what these speakers are capable of, but these receivers barely break 50%. I'm not going to drop $1,200 if I can't get my money's worth.

I guess I don't understand what's leading you to these metrics. I don't think any of the AVRs we're discussing are going to 'barely break 50%' of the performance of Kef Q550s.

Most of the AVRs in the chart have SINAD above 70. That's not great, but it's not going to be audible in casual HT content and music listening to most people. Are there edge cases in focused listening on familiar content when somebody would be able to tell the difference between 74db SINAD and 100db in a blind test? Yeah, maybe, but it's going to be a subtle thing, definitely not 50% vs 90%. Many of the people on this forum use miniDSP units for roomEQ which likely also have terrible SINAD relative to other electronics.

At the budgets you're talking about personally I would not worry too much about the AVR flaws discussed in the reviews of this website. They're very technical issues and they are most likely swamped by things like not having enough power or not having any RoomEQ.

1) Make sure you have enough power(use a basic calculator, or learn how to do the math more accurately yourself courtesy of Dr. Toole).
2) Get a Denon or Marantz with "Audyssey MultEQ XT32" specifically(not MultEQ alone).

Don't try to chase 2-channel DAC SINADs with your budget. It's not practical. Getting it in a multi-channel setup is currently expensive and/or challenging, and that's something Amir's reviews are trying to change, but there's no easy or cheap workarounds right now.
 

dshreter

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I really hope that WiSA takes off. What we have learned from WiFi is that wireless tech can get very inexpensive over time. Building pre/pro or AVRs that have complex DACs, switching, amplification, and more with all of the channels required by the modern standards makes them stupidly expensive.

If you can move the majority of what these boxes do to the digital domain and pass the output along to a wireless transmitter, the pre/pro itself has the potential to be much less expensive and less painful to upgrade periodically. Then do DAC and amplification on the speaker side, and only pay to have as many channels as you prefer. This makes much more sense in a world where active speakers have overtaken passive for performance.
Hopefully even AppleTV-like products would support standards like WiSA. That would be the dream scenario.
 

laudio

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I feel like I should ask, are Q550 good speakers? I want to get as many sources as possible.

And if they are good, what setup should I pair with them? Should I go the receiver route or the prepro + amp route? If it's the latter, do I need anything else other than the prepro and the amp or is that it?

They look pretty. KEF in general makes good stuff. I've never heard them. My best advice is find them somewhere and listen if you want them at that price.
 
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BoosedElephant
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I guess I don't understand what's leading you to these metrics. I don't think any of the AVRs we're discussing are going to 'barely break 50%' of the performance of Kef Q550s.

Most of the AVRs in the chart have SINAD above 70. That's not great, but it's not going to be audible in casual HT content and music listening to most people. Are there edge cases in focused listening on familiar content when somebody would be able to tell the difference between 74db SINAD and 100db in a blind test? Yeah, maybe, but it's going to be a subtle thing, definitely not 50% vs 90%. Many of the people on this forum use miniDSP units for roomEQ which likely also have terrible SINAD relative to other electronics.

At the budgets you're talking about personally I would not worry too much about the AVR flaws discussed in the reviews of this website. They're very technical issues and they are most likely swamped by things like not having enough power or not having any RoomEQ.

1) Make sure you have enough power(use a basic calculator, or learn how to do the math more accurately yourself courtesy of Dr. Toole).
2) Get a Denon or Marantz with "Audyssey MultEQ XT32" specifically(not MultEQ alone).

Don't try to chase 2-channel DAC SINADs with your budget. It's not practical. Getting it in a multi-channel setup is currently expensive and/or challenging, and that's something Amir's reviews are trying to change, but there's no easy or cheap workarounds right now.
Thank you for the reassurance, I'll do my research!
 

Sancus

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BoosedElephant
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I guess I don't understand what's leading you to these metrics. I don't think any of the AVRs we're discussing are going to 'barely break 50%' of the performance of Kef Q550s.

Most of the AVRs in the chart have SINAD above 70. That's not great, but it's not going to be audible in casual HT content and music listening to most people. Are there edge cases in focused listening on familiar content when somebody would be able to tell the difference between 74db SINAD and 100db in a blind test? Yeah, maybe, but it's going to be a subtle thing, definitely not 50% vs 90%. Many of the people on this forum use miniDSP units for roomEQ which likely also have terrible SINAD relative to other electronics.

At the budgets you're talking about personally I would not worry too much about the AVR flaws discussed in the reviews of this website. They're very technical issues and they are most likely swamped by things like not having enough power or not having any RoomEQ.

1) Make sure you have enough power(use a basic calculator, or learn how to do the math more accurately yourself courtesy of Dr. Toole).
2) Get a Denon or Marantz with "Audyssey MultEQ XT32" specifically(not MultEQ alone).

Don't try to chase 2-channel DAC SINADs with your budget. It's not practical. Getting it in a multi-channel setup is currently expensive and/or challenging, and that's something Amir's reviews are trying to change, but there's no easy or cheap workarounds right now.
What is the importance of Audyssey MultEQ XT32?
 

Sancus

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apgood

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I guess I don't understand what's leading you to these metrics. I don't think any of the AVRs we're discussing are going to 'barely break 50%' of the performance of Kef Q550s.

Most of the AVRs in the chart have SINAD above 70. That's not great, but it's not going to be audible in casual HT content and music listening to most people. Are there edge cases in focused listening on familiar content when somebody would be able to tell the difference between 74db SINAD and 100db in a blind test? Yeah, maybe, but it's going to be a subtle thing, definitely not 50% vs 90%. Many of the people on this forum use miniDSP units for roomEQ which likely also have terrible SINAD relative to other electronics.

At the budgets you're talking about personally I would not worry too much about the AVR flaws discussed in the reviews of this website. They're very technical issues and they are most likely swamped by things like not having enough power or not having any RoomEQ.

1) Make sure you have enough power(use a basic calculator, or learn how to do the math more accurately yourself courtesy of Dr. Toole).
2) Get a Denon or Marantz with "Audyssey MultEQ XT32" specifically(not MultEQ alone).

Don't try to chase 2-channel DAC SINADs with your budget. It's not practical. Getting it in a multi-channel setup is currently expensive and/or challenging, and that's something Amir's reviews are trying to change, but there's no easy or cheap workarounds right now.

What might be more important from these discussions is that we have measurements of the preamp outputs on the Prepro's and AVR's so we know what combination of Prepro/AVR & Power Amp go well together to drive your speakers to max volume especially if your speakers are either very low sensitivity (e.g. getting max volume out of them without clipping in Prepro / Power Amp) or very high sensitivity (e.g. minimise speaker hiss).
 

bobbooo

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Many people have reported that it does a far better job with bass management, which is the most important part of RoomEQ, than the regular MultEQ algorithm.

Note those 'after' EQ graphs are only predicted responses, not measured. Measurements may tell a different story. I've yet to see any real acoustic measurements directly comparing MultEQ XT to XT32 results.
 

adlervft

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I'm trying to have a dual solution for stereo and multi-channel and I'm thinking about this solution:

Buy a modern receiver with at least pre-out for the front channels. Buy an integrated amp (or a combo pre+power) and connect the pre-out of the receiver to an input of the amp. Connect the front speakers, subwoofer and the DAC directly in the integrated. For the volume matching, you can find an amp with either direct power-in connection, like the Marantz 8006 or with fixed volume settings, like the Rotel A12/A14. Just for movies, I don't mind the poor performance of the receiver, and for stereo, I can have a pretty decent system.
 

Sancus

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Note those 'after' EQ graphs are only predicted responses, not measured. Measurements may tell a different story. I've yet to see any real acoustic measurements directly comparing MultEQ XT to XT32 results.

Yes, I haven't seen actual after the fact measurements of the two, but I've seen enough people who have used MultEQ XT, XT32, and Dirac say that XT32 is an audible improvement to think that it's likely worthwhile. The regular Audyssey also did poorly in the Olive RoomEQ shootout, I believe. It's not like it's difficult or expensive to get XT32, the X3500H at $550 has it.

If I buy a JBL SDP-55 later in the year I plan to make a point of doing a calibration with XT32 vs Dirac with REW measurements, but I don't own a plain MultEQ AVR so I can't test that.
 

xr100

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Some of the heavyweight AVRs from early 2000's can be had for pennies on the dollar these days and have amp sections that are much better than what you can buy with class D for the same price.

Indeed. And they typically have multi-channel inputs bypassing the internal converters and DSP sections, anyway. :)
 

bigx5murf

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IMO, AVRs dropped in build quality noticeably during the recession. What supports my opinion was the number of known AVR failures in 2010-2012 models, especially HDMI and logic board issues. This prompted Onkyo/Denon (HDMI board capacitor failures), and Pioneer (UE22 error) to significantly extend their warranties, and basically offer huge unit replacement programs. I wonder if we're still subsidizing those replacement programs as well.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I tend to think of HT as PrePro +Multi-channel amps or better PrePro + Active speakers. As the best combination. It is good to reduce clutter and complexity. It is not optimal to to move the complexity to one box and hope it goes away or disappear because it is unnoticed, hidden. An AVR is a complex beast. We are asking it to perform:
  • Video Switching
  • Video Processing
  • Decoding of an Infinity of Formats: Dolby AC, Dolby Pro, Dolby Atmos, Dolby 383838, DTS 1, DTS -X-DTS-Y.... (I've made up some of these names...)
  • Digital Room Correction
  • Streaming Media , they must have Netflix, Prime, YouTube, even web browsing
  • Amplify those signals to speaker level
It is indeed possible to stuff all of this in one box, often one large unwieldy box. Our AVRs are proof of that. Should we, then, be surprised that so many corners are cut?
It doesn't help that the market is satisfied with this state of affair, Watching movies involve the eyes. Sight compensates for the barely adequate audio. For most people, even for audiophiles , a flat screen plus soundbar provides adequate HT performance. For many videophiles, the focus(pun intended) is on the eyes, Audio is truly secondary. Dynamic range and extended FR is all they need. Being able to hit 120 dB, 10 Hz to 20 KHz at the listening position, is every Home Theater enthusiast wet dream. At those high SPL, masking is at play. The actual dynamic range could be 30 dB before anybody cares. And of course there are those licenses issues... Dolby et all do not want their codes/codec to land on a PC-type hardware and to fight piracy... It is best for them to have these on a chip, more difficult to copy than a piece of software, I guess.

I wonder however if the PrePro from Anthem, Krell, Lexicon, DataSat, Classe, Cary Audio, Outlaw Audio, etc , the High End stuff , do not perform at a better level. Some are are expensive but not more than some of those TOL PrePro from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, etc. I would like to see some of these tested, perhaps an Outlaw PrePro. Outlaw Audio Prices are decent methink.

Peace!
 
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iLoveCats

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Yes, I haven't seen actual after the fact measurements of the two, but I've seen enough people who have used MultEQ XT, XT32, and Dirac say that XT32 is an audible improvement to think that it's likely worthwhile.

I have XT32 on my home theater and Dirac Live on my two channel. XT32 is the only acceptable substitute to Dirac Live in my opinion. They both independently handle multiple subs and have target response curve adjustability (you need the Audessey app for your phone +$20).
 

StevenEleven

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I‘ve got a 7.1 $300 Onkyo receiver. I only wanted 5.1 but the 7.1 version had a couple of extra inputs and outputs and features for maybe $30 more. I would summarize it as “excellent” rather than ”terrible.” You can (or could) buy it off the shelf at Best Buy. Onkyo provides regular firmware updates. I use it every single day with no hiccups. It runs quiet and cool and plays loud. My subwoofers do the heavy lifting amp-wise. Love the upmixing options. I have total confidence in the $2 dac chip(s) in there. I have total confidence in the amplification for my use case. Ergonomics and flexibility are excellent. I absolutely do not get the upper end A/V receiver market, unless you are really going to go 9.1 or 11.1. I am the only person I personally know with even a 5.1 system. Overall, I got more than $300 in value out of it, IMHO. :)
 
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markus

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Note those 'after' EQ graphs are only predicted responses, not measured. Measurements may tell a different story.

They will mirror each other. Acoustics of a room behaves as a LTI system.

I've yet to see any real acoustic measurements directly comparing MultEQ XT to XT32 results.

See the Audyssey thread(s) at AVSforum.com. Plenty of measurements.
 

capt.s

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Yes, I haven't seen actual after the fact measurements of the two, but I've seen enough people who have used MultEQ XT, XT32, and Dirac say that XT32 is an audible improvement to think that it's likely worthwhile. The regular Audyssey also did poorly in the Olive RoomEQ shootout, I believe. It's not like it's difficult or expensive to get XT32, the X3500H at $550 has it.

If I buy a JBL SDP-55 later in the year I plan to make a point of doing a calibration with XT32 vs Dirac with REW measurements, but I don't own a plain MultEQ AVR so I can't test that.
I did the REW comparison between XT32 on a Denon X4400H and Dirac on a NAD658. Corrected frequency response was very similar between them with XT32 being slightly flatter. However, what's harder to measure is the corrections in the time domain. Dirac uses FIR and IIR filters which in theory is better. I couldn't really hear an obvious difference between them though.
 
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