Why are AVRs and AVPs so expensive?

[bungle]

Let's just slap 4 HDMI 2.1 inputs to the midrange AVP at $1,000-$1,500 and high-end AVR at $2,000-$2,500 and call it a day. Today's AVRs and AVPs have almost no video and audio connections. They can add a few HDMI connections just for the V part in the AVP and AVR...

And let's remember there were these 1000 USD Denon Pro AVPs that also did analog video processing (composite, component, s-video), and some of them even did upscaling/converting to HDMI. I still think that big audio companies are just lazy, and without competition. Similar to Google today. New Denons are even worse in measurements, so they really optimize on one size fits all and spend all their time reducing their costs, while raising costs for customers.

 

[bungle]

e vast majority of HTs use passive speakers, and splitting amplifiers and AVRs makes things more annoying to set up which is the exact opposite of what most buyers want.

Well, there are active speakers that take PoE, so it is only a single cable and that's it (and also wireless speakers that only take power cord). I am also thinking that active speakers are the more and more popular these days. Every bluetooth speaker and sound bar and subwoofer is essentially active. The passive speakers seem to be more and more in a niche, and that market is only getting smaller.

 

[Vacceo]

If the point is having an audio box, the best way to get there is with a USB. Any 3.0 jack has plenty of bandwidth to send it. Problem is, as usual, that USB and DTS X/Atmos do not play well together. ARC and eARC are incredibly convenient, but not a common option with projectors (and many people like to set their HT´s with a projector).

Actives in sets still need something to decode the signal, that gets us back to the starting point. Would I love a device to decode and send to Genelecs? Quite so. Would I like that KEF allows a way to expand their LS series into multichannel? Absolutely. Would it be even more awesome if all that removed the remote and worked with just an app? Yes.

Will it happen? Probably not.

 

[bungle]

not a common option with projectors (and many people like to set their HT´s with a projector).

Not common on long throw projectors, well the HDMI cabling in general is annoying with long throw projectors (you don't really want to use long throw projector for video switching, and thus not for eARC). On UST projectors, most of them come with eARC these days.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

just doing a random check of some brand name tvs here

samsung sony lg

they all have optical out and 3.5 jack

i'm assuming the chinese all do this as well since they're not likely 'courageous' enough to remove expected ports

Well I couldn't really find one that had when I bought a new one last year. I was looking at the older mid budget LED's from Samsung and LG. So perhaps it's a matter of price point. I was just expecting it as every TV from beginning of time have had jack out and / or RCA out.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

There are a number of HDMI "Audio Break out" boxes on the market...

Yeah, but found them a bit expensive. Ended up with a bluetooth connected quality speaker I had, strip-tied behind the TV instead. -The TV department of the house isn't of very high priority. But I would've preferred two small bookshelf speakers and an amp instead.

 

[techsamurai]

And let's remember there were these 1000 USD Denon Pro AVPs that also did analog video processing (composite, component, s-video), and some of them even did upscaling/converting to HDMI. I still think that big audio companies are just lazy, and without competition. Similar to Google today. New Denons are even worse in measurements, so they really optimize on one size fits all and spend all their time reducing their costs, while raising costs for customers.

Here's a comparison of the Cinema 50 vs the 8002:

SR8002

Rear
6 Component (18 inputs)
7 S-video (7 inputs)
7 Composite Video (7 inputs)

2 Extra Optical (2 inputs)
2 Extra Coax (2 inputs)

6 Extra Audio Inputs (12 inputs)

2 Unswitched Plugs (2 inputs)
1 Extra DC Out (1 input)

2 Extra Remote Control (2 inputs)

7.1 Individual Inputs (8 inputs)

That's a total of 61 more inputs on the rear.

Front
Optical, S-Video, Composite, Audio (5)

Total: 66 extra


Cinema 50
Rear
Ethernet Port (1)
Antennas (2)
Extra Subs Pre-outs (3)
Extra channel Pre-outs (5)
HDMI (3)

Front
USB (1)

Total: 15 extra

A total of 51 more inputs on 8002. It's a substantial number.


If we look at the Cinema 60, it has 19 fewer inputs than the Cinema 50 and nothing's gold plated so a total of 70 fewer inputs than the 8002.

 

[TSB]

Creating a new model by removing features doesn't reduce cost.

It increases costs.

You're now serving two models that need seperate design, development and production.

It's only a good move if the lower tier model sells in significantly higher numbers, and it doesn't compete with the more expensive model. Then you might be able to win back the costs with volume.

With respect, but this whole thread is a lot of 'bar talk' and very little understanding of how modern avrs are developed and marketed.

 

[bungle]

Creating a new model by removing features doesn't reduce cost.

It increases costs.

They create multiple new models each year. Soon they will introduce subscriptions in them.

 

[TSB]

They create multiple new models each year. Soon they will introduce subscriptions in them.

Yes, because those models serve a sufficiently different market segment that is big enough.

Unlike most random feature sets we come up with in this thread

 

[techsamurai]

With respect, but this whole thread is a lot of 'bar talk' and very little understanding of how modern avrs are developed and marketed.

Well, we could say that about Denon and Marantz in the US market, right and they seem to make said AVRs

 

[techsamurai]

Yes, because those models serve a sufficiently different market segment that is big enough.

Unlike most random feature sets we come up with in this thread

Well, removing the video switching is an interesting one because most new model AVRs just handle HDMI and weren't really that great at doing that over the past 3-4 years.

eArc (uncompressed) and optical (compressed) have sort of allowed AVRs to become audio only boxes and there could be benefits to that.

Removing the AM/FM is also not a bad idea given the existence of WiFi and Bluetooth. After all, these boxes are getting more internet connected as opposed to manual connections - my AVR had 70 more inputs than the Cinema 60.

 

[bungle]

With respect, but this whole thread is a lot of 'bar talk' and very little understanding of how modern avrs are developed and marketed.

Please enlighten us? My prediction, within 5-10 years the whole AVR industry (as we know today) is gone, if they continue their current path. (I admit, bar talk)

 

[Vacceo]

Some of you guys have pointed out that TV´s are essentially HDMI hubs, taking out the need of several HDMI connections in the AVR/AVP. I agree, but what is more important, Primare does too, and they are manufacturers...

Please enlighten us? My prediction, within 5-10 years the whole AVR industry (as we know today) is gone, if they continue their current path. (I admit, bar talk)

I see a tendency to simplify devices (user-wise, not internally) and reduce their sizes. If manufacturers like Pro-Ject catch my attention is precisely for that compact size. Even with active speakers, the capacity to create "huge" sound with small devices is there (KEF LS60, Genelec...). It´s just a matter of time (i hope!) that Dolby and DTS allow software-based decoding.

 

[DoesNotExist]

A not-so-costly AVP Is the Canton Smart Connect 5.1
3 HDMI plus 1 eArc
Dolby Atmos and all DD/DTS protocol
BT and Google Cast capability

In EU It costs 650€. I bought It in last Black Friday for 500€

 

[Dougey_Jones]

OP is forgetting the law of supply and demand. The price is whatever the market will bear, and when you KNOW that your customer is someone who is bringing their own multichannel amplification to the party, you can assume they have more money to spend than someone who's in the market for an AVR.

 

[Steve Dallas]

What is the soundbar to AVR market and how has it changed over time? Does anyone know that? I use crutchfield to gauge it by counting soundbar products vs AVRs but that just shows a trend, not the actual market share. I suspect Atmos has all but killed Home Theater which I foresaw the day they announced it.

I'm a little lost. How has Atmos killed home theater?

 

[TonyJZX]

i think people overestimate how much it costs to put in so-called 'useless' options

i have a mid range atmos receiver and it has phono and AM/FM... they are probably using the same circuitry from 10yrs ago, but cost reduced

and so they include it because 'rusted on' old folks still want this stuff and it could count them out and they would lose a sale

ask yourself this... i dont want AM/FM or phono but did it stop me from buying it? NO

in regards to atmos "killing" home theater... this is an exaggeration but you can readily see how if some people found 5.1 setups to be painful then how is 7.2 going to entice them?

qv. why is soundbars gaining popularity? its not because they do 7.2 channels...

 

[techsamurai]

I'm a little lost. How has Atmos killed home theater?

It's complicated. So many speakers. It's so daunting that it's not even funny. Do I get 4 or 6 Atmos speakers? Do they have to be in-ceiling or hanging over my head? Is it ok to get a different brand? Can they be tiny speakers compared to my full towers Left and Right? Why can't it be a $20 bluetooth in-wall speaker?

What about the AVR? What about wall treatments??? Room Correction??? What???

Wait, each speaker needs wires? You're kidding - what are you serious? I need to wire 4 speakers to the back of my house and 4-6 speakers in the ceiling?

Wait, I need 11 speakers to do proper Atmos? There's no way I can fit 11 speakers in that room without a lawyer present

What about the subwoofer? That thing looks ridiculous. Are there any tiny ones that don't cost $2,000? How do I turn it off at night? (well, that was resolved with bluetooth apps and the SVS 3000 Micro but I had to wait 10 years for that to happen).

 

[techsamurai]

OP is forgetting the law of supply and demand. The price is whatever the market will bear, and when you KNOW that your customer is someone who is bringing their own multichannel amplification to the party, you can assume they have more money to spend than someone who's in the market for an AVR.

We shall see about that. I think the market is open for disruption and when that happens we'll see how it works out for these companies that are hiking prices by 50% for the same product. Cue in the massive discounts and year to year new models to offer the previous inventory on sale.