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Why are AVRs and AVPs so expensive?

techsamurai

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I was looking at the Emotiva BasX 7 channel class A/B Amplifier which comes with a toroidal and puts out 90 watts. Reading online it seems that it has 6 x 10,000 capacitors so it beats every AVR made in the past 15 years. It also weighs 30lbs which is more than many AVRs weigh that cost $2,000-$3,000.

Price $699

Then there's the Outlaw Model 7000 which ups the wattage to 130 watts and weighs 60 lbs; nearly as much as the heaviest current AVR the Denon which costs $6,500.

Price $999

A couple of questions spring to mind immediately after seeing these products:

1. Why aren't we seeing AVPs in the same price range as these amplifiers?

2. How can today's AVRs justify their prices?


These amps come with toroidals and I'm pretty sure the only thing that compares to the Outlaw powerwise is the Rotel RAP-1580 MkII which costs $5,500 and weighs as much with all the video processing.

How can AVRs like the Marantz SR8015 (the last toroidal with the Rotel) justify its price when the power delivery is at best comparable to $1,000 amplifiers? That means the video processing has to be worth $3,000 which is laughable when it comes with just 1 HDMI 2.1 connection 4 years after HDMI 2.1 was released.

But at least the aforementioned Marantz and Rotel had toroidal transformers which are a staple of high-end audio equipment (Luxman and SMPS being the exception). How can all the new models justify their prices when they are not even toroidal and deliver much less power? Their amp section is worth a maximum of $700 to $1,000 for all those AVRs and we're not even comparing apples to apples.

After all, most AVRs today just need a few HDMI connections along a circuit board with a DAC. It's not like the old days with Composite, S-Video, Component, HDMI where half the rear of the AVR was dedicated to video connections. Plus, you need very little power for the processing part as opposed to the speaker amplification part.

If we look at 3700h, an AVR that was very popular and used with external amps, it cost $1,000 when it was launched not long ago. Let's be generous and make it $1,200 to account for inflation and to keep Denon smiling. Let's now convert it to an AVP stripping it of its amplification (nearly half of the unit) dropping the weight from 27lbs to, say, 15lbs by adding a little bit of extra strength to the smaller chassis to make it a bit more audiophile. Let's assume the removal of the amplification and replacement with a basic power supply to run the unit as an AVP shaved $400 off the price ($100 in cost). Now we're looking at a $800 small sized near audiophile AVP without the mumbo jumbo. Let's add a little bit of niceties that cost $50 in parts and labor and bring the price to $1,000 or just sell it for $1,000.

Here's a $1,000 AVP. Okay, Denon is greedy and it would cost $1,500 in today's Denon world. Let's go along with that - Denon can charge $1,500 and Marantz can go bonkers and charge $1,600 since they're Ferraris!

Onkyo, Pioneer, and Integra can offer it for a lower price.

So now we have a decent AVP that's going to be home friendly and a decent value. Let's add a toroidal amp and turn it into an AVR like the BASX A7. We'll charge more than $700 since there are complexities to a single box - you need more than a napkin to design that. Instead of $1,700 ($1,000 for the AVP + $700 for the amplification), let's make it $2,500 and bump up the quality a bit adding $100 in better parts.

Now we have a world class AVR. This unit costs $2,500 and is better than the Cinema 40 and is still profitable as a single-box. We have $150 in parts improvement (massive in terms of quality, who knows a 5th leg maybe???:)) over the Cinema 40, and we also have a toroidal transformer like the SR8015 and we're saving $1,000. We slap the Denon and Marantz badge on it.

Bottomline mid-range AVPs should cost $1,500 and high-end AVRs should cost $2,500-$3,000 and should be better than current models.
 
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Part answer is maybe due to the use of decoders which cost license money?

Also a toroidal trafo isn't necessarily a sign of quality but may be because of the smaller footprint per watt.
EI trafos can be just as much "HiFi" as the donuts.
 

Bleib

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I think rather stereo amps are too expensive considering they seldom contain much extra functions at all
But sure, AVRs have gone up in price recently
 

delta76

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AVR is, by far, the most features you can get out for the dollar. The economy of scale applies here. You forgot that video processing is not cheap. License is not cheap either. Audyssey can easily cost 300$ for the xt32 version. Could be significantly more with dirac + dlbc

You did not account for the features that make avr an avr :).
 
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techsamurai

techsamurai

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Part answer is maybe due to the use of decoders which cost license money?

But wouldn't that impact low cost AVRs? Denon has an AVR that costs $299. Does it not do the same decoding (not processing just Dolby Atmos decoding) as the 8500HA?

Also a toroidal trafo isn't necessarily a sign of qulity but may be because of the smaller footprint per watt.
EI trafos can be just as much "HiFi" as the donuts.

Are Toroidals smaller in general than EIs? I didn't know that.

I don't want to turn this into an EI vs toroidal discussion as I agree that a proper EI design can sound as good. The Sansui 9090db settles that argument in a way that nothing else can.

Having said that, EIs are generally found in cheaper gear. You can find an Denon EI AVR for $300 - I've never heard of anything with a toroidal at that price point. You look at anything aspirational it's all toroidal Musical Fidelity 8xi (dual toroidals), Dan D'Agostino Momentum (massive single toroidal). I remember looking at pictures of smaller audiophile stereo amps (not the known brands) and they all had toroidals except for one that actually had 2 of them. But yeah, I'd take Sansui sound over a toroidal any day.
 
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techsamurai

techsamurai

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Audyssey can easily cost 300$ for the xt32 version. Could be significantly more with dirac + dlbc

You did not account for the features that make avr an avr :).

I'm pretty sure that the 3800h costs $300-$400 for Denon to manufacture so I doubt the license for Audyssey costs as much as everything else.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if it's actually less than $300 given the $1,000 cost of the 3700h not that long ago and the lesser DACs.
 

bungle

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Denon had a reasonable pro/installation lineup:
- Denon DN-A7100 (https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/products/view/dn-a7100)
- DN-500AV (https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/products/view/dn-500av)
- DN-700AVP (https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/products/view3/dn-700avp)

But unfortunately they have not updated that since. Those all were around 1000 USD with switchable -10dBv/+4dBu balanced XLR inputs/outputs and modern codecs (around the time they were released). BTW. I am still using DN-A7100 today as I have not found anything better since 2006 or something.
 
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OldHvyMec

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I suppose if you want to listen to sound effects there is a price. 8K for an AVP? I own Mcintosh what on earth are you talking about. LOL
I'll stick with my Cary SLP-05. I quit using AVRs in the 80s and AVP are used only if something is in the shop. Boxes full of stuff no one
will ever use or need. They are as heavy as a valve amp.

I used an AVR (HK) for the time display, but a Mac clock is less expensive to run. It cost the same as most higher price AVRs. LOL

No I don't have one, but I did see one at a garage sale along with 15 other Mac pieces. I picked up a pair of MC30s for 400.00 bucks.
They worked. 5 years ago. Still have them.

A buddy just spent 15K on equipment racks and LP storage. WOOD. Butcherblock, NOT laminated or painted. Stained.

After I woke up from passing out, he offered me a bottled water that cost 5 dollars. I got a glass and filled it from the tap.
No filter please, I insisted.

Choices, ay?

Regards.
 

voodooless

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AVR is, by far, the most features you can get out for the dollar. The economy of scale applies here. You forgot that video processing is not cheap. License is not cheap either. Audyssey can easily cost 300$ for the xt32 version. Could be significantly more with dirac + dlbc
No way the manufacturers pay that much for those licenses. It's probably below 100$ for all licenses for such devices.

You should also not forget the development cost that needs to be amortized over the sales. An AVR (line) is vastly more complex than an x-channel amplifier. There is a lot of software that needs to work flawlessly.

AVPs are more expensive because they just have much lower sales figures. You may argue that because they have 80% of the same insides, this price difference should not be that high, especially because the amps are missing. But in reality, they probably just make a bit more margin on those things, why not ;)

And no, toroidals aren't necessarily the hallmark of top quality. The best amps in the SINAD list don't have any ;) For an AVR, they don't make sense. They are way too large for a product that is already crammed with processing PCBs and amplifiers.
 
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techsamurai

techsamurai

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Denon had a reasonable pro/installation lineup:
- Denon DN-A7100 (https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/products/view/dn-a7100)
- DN-500AV (https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/products/view/dn-500av)
- DN-700AVP (https://www.denonpro.com/index.php/products/view3/dn-700avp)

But unfortunately they have not updated that since. Those all were around 1000 USD with switchable -10dBv/+4dBu balanced XLR inputs/outputs.

The 700AVP looks really nice. I didn't even know about these. Clearly a company can make a mid-range AVP for $1,500.

They are built better than I thought they would be.

They have HDMI 1.4a so circa 2010/11.
 

bungle

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The 700AVP looks really nice. I didn't even know about these. Clearly a company can make a mid-range AVP for $1,500.
Yes, last summer someone was selling one for 300 euros in Finnish forum, I missed my opportunity. Still would like HDMI upgraded to eARC stuff, but otherwise it is pretty decent. Yes, missing Atmos, but still has TrueHD. When they were still available in sites like Thomann the price was something like 800 € (new). So it is definitely possible. On pro-market I guess you cannot bullshit. Thus we are where we are. Either go pro and skip HDMI stuff and get real stuff, or get marketing crap and HDMI.
 

bungle

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They are built better than I thought they would be.
Yes, no plastics, real metal rack installable front plates etc. And my DN-A7100 serves as a testimony for no hickup for over 15 years of usage. They even send me a firmware update on email when I asked.
 
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techsamurai

techsamurai

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No way the manufacturers pay that much for those licenses. It's probably below 100$ for all licenses for such devices.
I'd be shocked if all the licenses in the Onkyo RZ50 cost $100. Decoding licenses must be very small as there's a Denon that supports Auro3d, DTS, and Dolby Atmos for $699. It also has MultEQ XT.

You should also not forget the development cost that needs to be amortized over the sales. An AVR (line) is vastly more complex than an x-channel amplifier. There is a lot of software that needs to work flawlessly.

But they have been doing for a long time. If anything, they no longer have to worry about composite, s-video, and component input and outputs. For the most part it's all HDMI. They just need to extract the audio and pass the signal along. It shouldn't be that hard.

They've been doing 5 channel sound for 20 years - then they switched to a whopping 6, then 7. Perhaps, they struggled in basic arithmetic but these are not complicated changes.
Then they went to 9. It's not like we asked them to make them the first 3d video card like the 3dfx Voodoo. If anything, they are probably so idle that they have mastered both Darts and Snooker by now :)

AVPs are more expensive because they just have much lower sales figures. You may argue that because they have 80% of the same insides, this price difference should not be that high, especially because the amps are missing. But in reality, they probably just make a bit more margin on those things, why not ;)

But aren't the margins contributing to the low sales? Won't the AV10 suffer in sales as it's nearly double the price of the SR8015 and is just an AVP? Surely a mid-range Marantz or an upgraded 3700H AVP for $1,700 would sell well.
 
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techsamurai

techsamurai

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Yes, last summer someone was selling one for 300 euros in Finnish forum, I missed my opportunity. Still would like HDMI upgraded to eARC stuff, but otherwise it is pretty decent. Yes, missing Atmos, but still has TrueHD. When they were still available in sites like Thomann the price was something like 800 € (new). So it is definitely possible. On pro-market I guess you cannot bullshit. Thus we are where we are. Either go pro and skip HDMI stuff and get real stuff, or get marketing crap and HDMI.

Yep, eArc - that's exactly what I thought. I was thinking of also picking one up and then adding an external amp. A shame they didn't have one with eArc.
 

delta76

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I'm pretty sure that the 3800h costs $300-$400 for Denon to manufacture so I doubt the license for Audyssey costs as much as everything else.

I wouldn't be surprised one bit if it's actually less than $300 given the $1,000 cost of the 3700h not that long ago and the lesser DACs.
Citation needed?

I am aware that the mark up for avr is pretty high (nowhere near the fancy audio equipment, especially "audiophile"), but i doubt they can be that high.

And even if it is true, every audio video component in the avr needs some kind of license. Even the firmware itself needs developers and QAs. In comparison, if an amp ever needs a firmware it would be very basic and essentially no maintenance
 
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techsamurai

techsamurai

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Yes, no plastics, real metal rack installable front plates etc. And my DN-A7100 serves as a testimony for no hickup for over 15 years of usage. They even send me a firmware update on email when I asked.
Where does the A7100 fit in? Is it better or worse than the 500/700? The cr*p they use nowadays is crazy. My AVRs are all copper-plated...
 
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techsamurai

techsamurai

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Citation needed?

I am aware that the mark up for avr is pretty high (nowhere near the fancy audio equipment, especially "audiophile"), but i doubt they can be that high.

And even if it is true, every audio video component in the avr needs some kind of license. Even the firmware itself needs developers and QAs. In comparison, if an amp ever needs a firmware it would be very basic and essentially no maintenance

Check out the Denon X1700H which costs $699

Denon's website brings it as having every decoding technology but it doesn't include Auro3d and IMAX Enhanced.

It also has Audyssey MultEQ XT which is available in the 2700h and 2800h so the license cannot be that high and it's just one step under the XT32.

Generally speaking, the rule of thumb is that a product costs 25% of what it sells for at retail.
 

bungle

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Where does the A7100 fit in? Is it better or worse than the 500/700? The cr*p they use nowadays is crazy. My AVRs are all copper-plated...
A7100 is the oldest of them. It comes with HDMI 1.1, and comes with only 2 HDMI inputs. No ARC nor eARC. No TrueHD or Atmos either. But other than that it is pretty decent. I considered moving to 500, it had 1.4a HDMI but they removed FM-tuner, which back then I considered downgrade. Time flew and 700 came, but then I was not happy that they were still on 1.4b HDMI (they put FM back). I have regretted it since, and still today think that 700 would serve me best (while hoping they would release a successor).
 
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techsamurai

techsamurai

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A7100 is the oldest of them. It comes with HDMI 1.1, and comes with only 2 HDMI inputs. No ARC nor eARC. No TrueHD or Atmos either. But other than that it is pretty decent. I considered moving to 500, it had 1.4a HDMI but they removed FM-tuner, which back then I considered downgrade. Time flew and 700 came, but then I was not happy that they were still on 1.4b HDMI (they put FM back). I have regretted it since, and still today think that 700 would serve me best (while hoping they would release a successor).

Thanks, this product should be available new from one of those manufacturers including Denon. Clearly they can build it for less than $2,000.

Emotiva created the MC1 which costs $1,100 but it had a bad review but I just hope their next version is a success because it's going to put a lot of manufacturers on notice.
 

bungle

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One thing I'd love to see is to 2.1/2.2 AVP (modern HDMI and codecs) with XLR either analog or AES (or both) outputs (AES probably not possible because of HDMI/HDCP). Right now AVP they release is that 16 channel containing everything beasts with a starting price 5000+ USD.
 
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