Why are AVRs and AVPs so expensive?

[dlaloum]

Personally, I don't need all those. I'd take better stereo and music for the front stage because that would have the biggest impact in movies, shows, and games. Dynamics are also very important - good capacitance matters along with the ability to hit 300-400 watts when needed.

Then you need an external power amp - no AVR on the market will hit 300-400W continuous into 8ohm. - That power output is well outside of the range covered by AVR's (at ANY price)

The Crown XLS2500 I run for my front channel, using the Integra DRX3.4 as a pre, reaches [email protected].... and [email protected]

 

[techsamurai]

It benched at 135W @ 8ohm two channel driven, which is pretty good in this market segment! (and above the rated power from the specs)

Typically most AVR's claim 70% power all channels driven - but I have not seen it tested anywhere. (it's rated power is 120W @ 8ohm stereo... so you would expect circa 84W max all channels driven... but it bettered its specs, so it may well achieve 100W/ch, but I have not seen it tested)

It's main competitor costs substantially more, and only achieves [email protected] stereo (Denon X3800)

The "issues" on the lab bench related to the self protection (AKA "Nanny) circuit, which after 30+ seconds of continuous 5W output into 4ohm, knobbled the power output, reducing it to around 30W... and then requires a hard reset to bring it out of Nanny mode. - However, we have no evidence to date, of this happening in actual use in real life (as opposed to on the lab bench). Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But still... it is a fairly draconian nanny circuit.

Pre-outs provided an excellent output, one of the best in its market segment

Test is here, with all its controversy:

Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Onkyo TX-RZ50 9.2 8K THX Certified AV Receiver. It was purchased new by a member and drop shipped to me for testing. It costs US $1,399. Looks like all AVR companies are trying to break the mold of just dual rotary controls to something...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Yes it is powerful and Onkyo does seem to do better than 70% with all channels.

The problem was with 4 ohm loads. I have 8 ohm speakers but they dip to 2.8 ohms so I've no idea how they'll behave under load and I don't want to be the guinea pig.

I could get around it by using an external 5 channel amp to power my LCR.

 

[dlaloum]

Yes it is powerful and Onkyo does seem to do better than 70% with all channels.

The problem was with 4 ohm loads. I have 8 ohm speakers but they dip to 2.8 ohms so I've no idea how they'll behave under load and I don't want to be the guinea pig.

I could get around it by using an external 5 channel amp to power my LCR.

It won't damage your speakers, if that is what you mean, and 2.8ohms is low, but not as low as my own which go to 1.6ohm.

And No I would not trust most AVR's out there to handle difficult speakers properly ... possibly something like the TOTL Marantz or Denon could handle them - but they are a bit rich for me!

The Integra DRX3.4 did NOT sound good with my speakers - I think the 1.6ohm was too much for it - but it sounds superb with the external XLS amps... so no complaints (the internal amps do fine with the other channels)

 

[techsamurai]

Then you need an external power amp - no AVR on the market will hit 300-400W continuous into 8ohm. - That power output is well outside of the range covered by AVR's (at ANY price)

The Crown XLS2500 I run for my front channel, using the Integra DRX3.4 as a pre, reaches [email protected].... and [email protected]

I was talking about dynamic bursts in 2 channel and 4 ohms. Most AVRs can do bursts that are 50% higher than continuous power.

 

[dlaloum]

I was talking about dynamic bursts in 2 channel and 4 ohms. Most AVRs can do bursts that are 50% higher than continuous power.

Dynamic power specs for the RZ50 are:

Dynamic power

250 W (3 ohms, Front) 220 W (4 ohms, Front) 130 W (8 ohms, Front)

which is not bad at all.

Typically a Class AB amp like the RZ50 can peak substantially above its continuous rated power....

Class D amps like the Crowns, tend to have far more constrained headroom.... so typically Class D are very good value for money in continuous terms... but not as much so in Dynamic power terms.... which is OK with the Crowns given their continuous abilities are so "generous" - but might be more of a problem with a 100W Class D amp...

I have not seen the RZ50 bench tested for dynamic power - so we only have the specs to refer to.
If the dynamic power follows the same pattern as the measured continuous power... ie: 12.5% above spec, then Dynamic power into 4 ohm should be 247.5W...
Ample for most situations and most speakers.

 

[techsamurai]

Dynamic power specs for the RZ50 are:

Dynamic power

250 W (3 ohms, Front) 220 W (4 ohms, Front) 130 W (8 ohms, Front)

which is not bad at all.

Typically a Class AB amp like the RZ50 can peak substantially above its continuous rated power....

Class D amps like the Crowns, tend to have far more constrained headroom.... so typically Class D are very good value for money in continuous terms... but not as much so in Dynamic power terms.... which is OK with the Crowns given their continuous abilities are so "generous" - but might be more of a problem with a 100W Class D amp...

I have not seen the RZ50 bench tested for dynamic power - so we only have the specs to refer to.
If the dynamic power follows the same pattern as the measured continuous power... ie: 12.5% above spec, then Dynamic power into 4 ohm should be 247.5W...
Ample for most situations and most speakers.

Yeah, it would have been nice if Gene at Audioholics had benched one. He said he might bench one.

The Crown is the king of power value.

Yeah, I have an old Marantz that does really well in benchmarks (175 in 2ch, 120 in 5ch and 110 in 7ch 0.1% THD). The 8015 bursts to 220 watts so I assume mine must burst to at least that number.

 

[dlaloum]

Yeah, it would have been nice if Gene at Audioholics had benched one. He said he might bench one.

The Crown is the king of power value.

Yeah, I have an old Marantz that does really well in benchmarks (175 in 2ch, 120 in 5ch and 110 in 7ch 0.1% THD). The 8015 bursts to 220 watts so I assume mine must burst to at least that number.

My old Integra DTR70.4 was benched at [email protected] - I'm pretty sure peak was up in the mid 200's

I am hoping that the flagship Onkyo's when they finally come out, will be at that level... as I could then simplify my setup and decommission the crowns

 

[techsamurai]

My old Integra DTR70.4 was benched at [email protected] - I'm pretty sure peak was up in the mid 200's

I am hoping that the flagship Onkyo's when they finally come out, will be at that level... as I could then simplify my setup and decommission the crowns

Yeah, Onkyo and Integra had some big AVRs in the past and I think the Onkyo 906 was the only one to have different power supplies (massive toroidal for speakers and separate power supply for audio and video processing).

That DTR70.4 is a big AVR - I can't find measurements for it but I'm sure it hit 120 watts in 7 channels.

Here are the highest numbers of a Class A/B AVR I've seen other than the 100lb Denon 5806.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-z11-av-receiver-measurements.

140 watts into 7 channels for 75lbs. But the Outlaw Model 7000 hits 130 watts for $1,000 with 60lbs and it's toroidal.

 

[Jbrunwa]

Are most of the HDMI boards used in AVRs manufactured by one company?

I could be wrong but I believe that Arcam/JBL and Anthem use not just the same HDMI chips but also the exact same HDMI 2.1 circuit board.

 

[techsamurai]

I was looking at the Emotiva BasX 7 channel class A/B Amplifier which comes with a toroidal and puts out 90 watts. Reading online it seems that it has 6 x 10,000 capacitors so it beats every AVR made in the past 15 years. It also weighs 30lbs which is more than many AVRs weigh that cost $2,000-$3,000.

Price $699

Methinks, this puppy is more powerful than it appeareth.

 

[techsamurai]

Has anyone seen or heard of the Emotiva BasX MR1?

 

[Roland68]

I could be wrong but I believe that Arcam/JBL and Anthem use not just the same HDMI chips but also the exact same HDMI 2.1 circuit board.

This isn't new and they use a lot more than just the HDMI board...
Lamenting the lack of good quality budget A/V Preamplifier/Processors Post #64

 

[TSB]

This isn't new and they use a lot more than just the HDMI board...
Lamenting the lack of good quality budget A/V Preamplifier/Processors Post #64

What else are they (Anthem AVM70 and Arcam AV40) sharing except for the HDMI board? Are you referring to the power supply?

 

[Roland68]

What else are they (Anthem AVM70 and Arcam AV40) sharing except for the HDMI board? Are you referring to the power supply?

The power supply is really the least important thing in the devices.
Just look at all the circuit boards. If you know a little about the design and layout of circuit boards and circuits, then you will notice too many similarities.
That's not surprising, how should a small company cope with the costs for the development of such a device, especially with such small quantities. Up to a certain point, things are developed together and then individualized. With the Anthem AVM70, for example, you can see an area for voltage regulation on the middle circuit board that is not populated because they use a switched-mode power supply for this. With the Arcam AV40, this area is fully equipped.

 

[beagleman]

It won't damage your speakers, if that is what you mean, and 2.8ohms is low, but not as low as my own which go to 1.6ohm.

And No I would not trust most AVR's out there to handle difficult speakers properly ... possibly something like the TOTL Marantz or Denon could handle them - but they are a bit rich for me!

The Integra DRX3.4 did NOT sound good with my speakers - I think the 1.6ohm was too much for it - but it sounds superb with the external XLS amps... so no complaints (the internal amps do fine with the other channels)

2.8 is quite low and 1.6 is simply a poorly designed speaker. Not sure if you are bragging about it, or lamenting it, but not a good thing for sure.....

Those are exceptions, and most speakers do not have that poor of impedance values.

 

[dlaloum]

2.8 is quite low and 1.6 is simply a poorly designed speaker. Not sure if you are bragging about it, or lamenting it, but not a good thing for sure.....

Those are exceptions, and most speakers do not have that poor of impedance values.

Most speakers don't have CDT tweeters... quite exceptional.

One of few speakers that has a similar ability to portray micro detail the way my long gone electrostatics used to (without taking up the space, and overwhelming the room... which caused family acceptance issues...)

 

[techsamurai]

2.8 is quite low

Most B&W speakers dip like that. They now post 3.0 ohms on their website.

 

[peng]

Most B&W speakers dip like that. They now post 3.0 ohms on their website.

True, they typically have low dips and B&W has been including the dip specs for many years. Dips and nominal are different things to consider though. In general, AVRs can't handle 4 ohm nominal full range speakers (there are exceptions obviously, and it depends on the owners listening habits too) but many can deal with dips just fine as long as those dips are narrow ones (over a narrow freq range) and don't coincide with large phase angles.

 

[Joffy1780]

Does anybody have any experience of Tonewinner products? They have a very interesting looking AVP recently listed on Audiophonics.

 

[dlaloum]

Does anybody have any experience of Tonewinner products? They have a very interesting looking AVP recently listed on Audiophonics.

Good reputation for reliability, and decent to excellent sound quality.

But no on-board room eq system