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Why are AVRs and AVPs so expensive?

Roland68

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it's niche, but not sure about "incredibly niche". it is still a 2.x billion $ market.
But this study is a fake regarding the AV receivers we are talking about here, or have you ever seen an AVR from LG?
Well over 70% of this turnover goes to soundbars, pseudo 5.1 systems, cheap complete AV systems/home entertainment with amplifiers from LG, Harman Kardon, Sony, Yamaha, Inkel Corporation, Pyle etc.
Have a look at electronics discounters, there are 10-30 of these systems on a "real" AV receiver.
Then there are all the very cheap and also pseudo AV receivers from Auna, Pyle, Inkel Corporation and many others, which are sold in some countries from as little as 100 euros and in unbelievable quantities.

If the type of AV receivers we're talking about here on the forum and in this thread account for 25% of the above sales, then that should be a lot.
 
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techsamurai

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We don't know that, but we do know there are a lot more customer reviews on AVRs than AVPs, I mean really a lot more! That does not prove you assumption is wrong, because it is possible that AVP owners are less bothered to submit reviews. Same with the available for sale number at Crutchfield, because high inventory could simply mean sales are slow. Further, if you are comparing D+M's, there is only 2 current models, the AV7706 and AV10, so to compare with AVRs you have to add up the SR7015, 8015, C60, 50, 40, AVR-X2800, 3800, 4800, 6700, 8500.

Bottom line, we don't know the real sales volume comparisons unless someone can share the insider information but one can take an educated guess.

Well, let's do apples to apples. The Anthem MRX1140 costs $4,200 (without discounts) and the Anthem AVM70 costs $4,000.

Very comparable in price - one is an AVR, the other an AVP.

Number of Reviews on Crutchfield's website:

MRX1140 - 7 reviews
AVM70 - 10 reviews

The 1140 has a few negative reviews so that may skew the number up a bit - maybe 10 positive reviews for the AVM70 vs 4 positive reviews for the MRX1140 would provide a more unskewed and realistic number.

If we use all reviews as a metric then the AVM70 outsells the MRX1140 by 50%. If we use positive reviews (4 stars and above), the AVM70 outsells the 1140 by a factor of 150%.

Don't you own an AVM70?:)
 
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techsamurai

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I also think sales volume has a lot to do with pricing, the more you sell, the more you can sell at lower prices!

I just did a not a very non scientific comparison on projected/educated gessed sales volume of AVP vs AVRs (D+M models only) based on customer reviews, while it won't be accuate at all, it might still give us a rough idea.

Amazon.com, Crutchfield.com and Besbuy.com customer reviews on the following:

Amazon Crutchfield Bestbuy
Marantz AV7706: 33 12 26
Marantz AV7705: 12
Marantz AV8805A: 1 12
Marantz AV8805: 15 9
Marantz AV8802A 14
Marantz SR7015: 60 18
Marantz SR8015: 59 24
Marantz SR6015: 73 55
Marantz SR5015: 258 158
Denon AVR-X3700H 584 50
Denon AVR-X4700H 408 102 221
Denon AVR-X6700H 239 26
Denon AVR-X8500H 53 17
Denon AVR-X8500HA 12
Denon AVR-A110 12
Denon AVR-X3800H 16 42
Marantz C50 16 18
Marantz C60 258
Marantz AVR-X2800H 445

Not totally scientific, won't be accurate, but one can still draw some projected sales volume comparisons that seem to show:

- AVRs out sell AVPs by a wide margin
- Denon sells a more more AVRs than Marantz did
- Customers seem to care more about prices than gold plated connectors and HDAMs;) They probably did what I did, checked prices in countries outside North America and realize that Denon's are better values here mainly because Marantz US and Canada's list prices are ridiculously high relative the Asia and Europe's, I wonder if that has anything to do with the tariff/import duties differentials, as shipping costs shouldn't differ by that much, they all have to be shipped from Vietnam and Japan. South East Asian countries such as Hong Kong and Singapore do enjoy lower shippping costs and import duties though. Still the price differentials between D and M in European countries are much lower than that in the US and Canada, like 1/3 to even 1/4 in some cases.

I thought I would check out Yamaha too and found:

CX-A5100 15
RX-A6A 27
RX-V6A 91

So it's the same scenario, Yamaha sells tons of AVRs especially the lower models but I doubt they sell that many AVPs at all. In fact it is hard to find places (online ones) that even bother selling Yamaha AVPs.

Same for Anthem, AVRs out sell the AVPs by a wide margin if you add up the MRX540, 740, 1140 review to compare with the AVM70 and 90 reviews.

That's amazing information. Your conclusion that Denon outsells Marantz is valid. I loved the gold-plated burn:) If it makes you feel better, my old Marantz SR5002 which cost $500 didn't have gold-plated connections either, just like the $7,500 AVM90.

You also cannot draw the conclusion that Denon is or sounds better than Marantz because you'd need to listen to both to make that determination. You didn't draw that conclusion, I'm just stating it as some will assume that to be the case.

I'm not sure about the conclusion for AVPs because I just posted that the AVM70 on Crutchfield has more reviews than the MRX1140 which are similarly priced. In fact, when looking at reviews you probably have to ignore negative reviews as a bad product will have a higher number of negative reviews, that doesn't make it better or increase its sales.

The other clear conclusion here is that cheap AVRs outsell expensive ones and the Cinema 50 is an expensive AVR today compared to the near identical 6015 when it launched. Look at the massive three-fold difference between the 5015 and 6015 in terms of reviews suggesting that the 5015 outsold the 6015 to the tune of 3 to 1. What is the equivalent of the 5015 today in terms of price? Is it the Cinema 70?

Holy smokes!:)
 

peng

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That's amazing information. Your conclusion that Denon outsells Marantz is valid. I loved the gold-plated burn:) If it makes you feel better, my old Marantz SR5002 which cost $500 didn't have gold-plated connections either, just like the $7,500 AVM90.

You also cannot draw the conclusion that Denon is or sounds better than Marantz because you'd need to listen to both to make that determination. You didn't draw that conclusion, I'm just stating it as some will assume that to be the case.

I'm not sure about the conclusion for AVPs because I just posted that the AVM70 on Crutchfield has more reviews than the MRX1140 which are similarly priced. In fact, when looking at reviews you probably have to ignore negative reviews as a bad product will have a higher number of negative reviews, that doesn't make it better or increase its sales.

The other clear conclusion here is that cheap AVRs outsell expensive ones and the Cinema 50 is an expensive AVR today compared to the near identical 6015 when it launched. Look at the massive three-fold difference between the 5015 and 6015 in terms of reviews suggesting that the 5015 outsold the 6015 to the tune of 3 to 1. What is the equivalent of the 5015 today in terms of price? Is it the Cinema 70?

Holy smokes!:)

I see your points about the Anthem AVPs vs AVRs sales volume (based on guessimated..), however, the guts of the 1140,740,540 are largely the same based on available info, differences are mainly in the amp section and power supplies, so in terms of the benefits from economy of scale, comparing their total sales to that of the AVPs should be valid.

Also Anthem sold a large number of avm70 because the clearance deal last fall/winter, so the 1140 became much more expensive in that time period; and the avm70 became one of the best value deals.

My other point is, Marantz' s premium price in the US and Canada are inflated to the nth degree relative to Asia and Europe. Is that due to tariff? Do you have any insight on that? If the difference between them were between $200-$300 like in Europes, I would definitely go with Marantz (not for the gold plated, but for the style), let alone those Singapore deals that are $1 apart between the C50 and the 3800!

Lastly, you are right I never said Denon sounds better than Marantz because I don't believe in subjective reviews anyway unless done in controlled DBT comparisons. I did say Denon's measured better based on the models that have the AKM DAC, except the SR8015, that measured just as good. That's just facts, so I have no trouble saying it.

In my own subjective listenting tests though, I cannot honestly tell you one sounded better than the others, and that's based on my own listening comparison to my two Marantz AVPs, preamp/power amp, and several Denon AVRs. Such comparison means little to me, and should mean nothing to others, I only mentioned this because you seem to think I have not listened to both.
 

Roland68

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Read this and let me know if you still believe that my assumptions and claims are removed from reality. They are firmly cemented in reality.



The price of other electronics like TVs, computers, speakers don't seem to support your theory. How can the Onkyo, Pioneer, and Integra offer their top product for $1,400 and now $1,600.


How much does Denon get out of their sub-1000 AVRs? They are probably their best sellers. The 3800H must outsell the 4800H and AH1 to a huge percentage and it costs $1,700.


I can't account for all their costs - I don't run their business. Are you suggesting that they were not running their businesses properly until recently?

Clearly, Denon and Marantz have been the target of acquisition. If they were not running their business well, I'm not sure they would have been acquired and we'd have seen changes in their lineups over the past 15 years. You conveniently left out the economies of scale of sharing things across 2 brands vs 1. The 4800h is practically identical to the Cinema 40 as someone posted on another thread.



The number of AVPs available for sale at Crutchfield showed that they are not as niche as we assume. In fact, at the over $3,000 range, they may outnumber AVRs.

I would argue that it's their price that makes them niche, not their function. I think we have all accepted the fact that we may need to separate our components especially since amplification is actually cheaper from Emotiva than Outlaw than from the onboard amplification.

Also, a lot of folks are using AVRs as AVPs and even the small factor Cinema 70 has pre-outs. If it's not supposed to be used as an AVR/AVP, then what's the point of the pre-outs in such a model? Clearly, AVPs or AVRs functioning as AVPs are the future.



I dunno about DACs but the MRX740 is a $3,100 AVR and my calculations for the 9010 DACs with pricing for 100 units (not wholesale) showed that the DACs cost $17. I rest my case. Thank god my CPU and GPU don't cost $17 in my computers. :)
I was afraid there was little point in teaching you a little internals.
Your statement on the first point alone is enough. Also, you don't seem to realize that manufacturers see less than 50% of every $ in sales.
This is not meant in a bad way, but without the economic background you will unfortunately always draw the wrong conclusions.

Also according to the last study, AVP do not have a significant market share. Even in the price range above 4000,- the share is less than 20% compared to AVRs of the same price (manufacturer information).
Malicious gossips also claim that the manufacturers are taking the cheap AVRs with preamp outputs off the market, or have already taken them off the market in order to make the AVP market more exclusive and to protect it. As an example Yamaha RX-V 779/781.

However, if the new generation of devices prevails and their manufacturers react better to the market and serve it, the previous AVP will die out. Not immediately, but for the old AVP manufacturers it's already more prestige than business.
https://www.nubert.de/nuxinema-preav/a040686
https://www.canton.de/en/products/smart/smart-connect-5.1
https://emotiva.com/products/basx-mc1-13-2-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-cinema-processor
 
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techsamurai

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I see your points about the Anthem AVPs vs AVRs sales volume (based on guessimated..), however, the guts of the 1140,740,540 are largely the same based on available info, differences are mainly in the amp section and power supplies, so in terms of the benefits from economy of scale, comparing their total sales to that of the AVPs should be valid.

I don't think we can compare a 5 or 7 channel AVR that's half the price to a 15 channel AVP that costs twice as much in some instances. The MRX1140 to AVM70 is more of a price and class-specific comparison.

My other point is, Marantz' s premium price in the US and Canada are inflated to the nth degree relative to Asia and Europe. Is that due to tariff? Do you have any insight on that? If the difference between them were between $200-$300 like in Europes, I would definitely go with Marantz (not for the gold plated, but for the style), let alone those Singapore deals that are $1 apart between the C50 and the 3800!

Sorry, that was a great point and I skipped over it. In complete agreement. Where are Denons made? Are they not subject to import tariffs?

Lastly, you are right I never said Denon sounds better than Marantz because I don't believe in subjective reviews anyway unless done in controlled DBT comparisons. I did say Denon's measured better based on the models that have the AKM DAC, except the SR8015, that measured just as good. That's just facts, so I have no trouble saying it.

In my own subjective listenting tests though, I cannot honestly tell you one sounded better than the others, and that's based on my own listening comparison to my two Marantz AVPs, preamp/power amp, and several Denon AVRs. Such comparison means little to me, and should mean nothing to others, I only mentioned this because you seem to think I have not listened to both.

I know you've listened to everything :) I updated my comment to mention that others may draw that conclusion as I realized that I might have inadvertently suggested that you said that. I personally could hear differences but that was over 10 years ago and they were not subtle but I have not listened to Denon's top of the line vs Marantz with recent models so I refrain from calling one better than the other. I do know there's a signature sound to Marantz that is warmer and they don't overdo bass.
 
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techsamurai

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I was afraid there was little point in teaching you a little internals.
Your statement on the first point alone is enough. Also, you don't seem to realize that manufacturers see less than 50% of every $ in sales.
This is not meant in a bad way, but without the economic background you will unfortunately always draw the wrong conclusions.

Also according to the last study, AVP do not have a significant market share. Even in the price range above 4000,- the share is less than 20% compared to AVRs of the same price (manufacturer information).
Malicious gossips also claim that the manufacturers are taking the cheap AVRs with preamp outputs off the market, or have already taken them off the market in order to make the AVP market more exclusive and to protect it. As an example Yamaha RX-V 779/781.

However, if the new generation of devices prevails and their manufacturers react better to the market and serve it, the previous AVP will die out. Not immediately, but for the old AVP manufacturers it's already more prestige than business.
https://www.nubert.de/nuxinema-preav/a040686
https://www.canton.de/en/products/smart/smart-connect-5.1
https://emotiva.com/products/basx-mc1-13-2-channel-dolby-atmos-dts-x-cinema-processor

It doesn't have to die out - they can co-exist. Companies can sell their super AVP for $4,000 and $8,000 with support for more channels and a toroidal in it and higher DACs. There are always a minority who want the best and are willing to pay for it. In fact, $4,000 may be too little for those folks as it'd be easier to round it to $5,000.

That doesn't mean they can't sell a $1,500 AVP for 9 channels with mid-range DACs (they are practically free). If $15 for the DACs is an issue then offer a DAC upgrade charge for $50 that covers the DACs and gives us > ESS9010 DACs - I'll pay it just as I pay for a better CPU or more RAM.

Do all computers need to sport a 4090 Nvidia GPU at $4,000? My AIO has a 9 tflop video card and a 27 inch calibrated screen and cost $1,300 with a 1tb SSD. Clearly, Lenovo is making a profit.

What's the best selling Marantz AVR? Based on reviews, it's probably the Cinema 70 which sells for $1,200. Its rated at 50 watts for 2 channels - so 30 watts for 7 channels. It has 15 year old room correction.

Compare that to my Marantz SR5002 that I bought 20 years which sold for $500 (I think I even got a discount so it was 450) and just powered 5 channels with 90 watts per channel. Would I rather have 30 watts for 5 channels driven for $1,200 or 90 watts for $500? Granted the 5002 would cost $950 today based on inflation but it still destroys the Cinema 70 in the amplification department 3 to 1 and 35 watts isn't bad if you buy a PrimaLuna Tube amp but it's not that great for an AVR. My microwave has 1100 watts of power - maybe Marantz can use it to power the AVR :)
 
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peng

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do know there's a signature sound to Marantz that is warmer and they don't overdo bass.

That is something I don't buy but if you do good for you as that's how subjective reviews work, anyone can say anything and no one can argue with you because no one knows what your ears heard.

Objectively speaking though, If one, assuming you may be implying Denon, "over do bass", then it should show up in frequency response measurements, but it doesn't!
The only time Marantz showed up with difference (only down -2.5 dB at 20,000 Hz) is when measured with digital input and at 44.1 sampling frequency. If measured with sampling rate at 96 kHz or even 48 kHz, they will be flat line too.

If analog inputs are used (see graphs below), the two will have visually identical FR, does the Marantz still sounds warmer and not overdo bass in that case?
I think you need to do some real controlled blind tests to convince yourself, other than that no one can convince you. But I would suggest you not to do that because it may burst your bubble lol..

Below is a comparison of the FR between a $3,299 Marantz SR8015 in June 2021 , and a $1,099 in April 2020 (way back before inflation) AVR-X3600H.
See that the difference at up to 20,000 kHz, the Marantz is 0.052 dB in favor of the Marantz, bass down to 10 Hz looks identical.
Yet you heard warmer sound, I rest my case!

index.php
index.php


You can also compare their harmonic profiles, many audiophile claims that it's not just the THD% or SINAD, but high order odd harmonics would contribute to bright, detailed sound whereas low order even harmonics, that is, 2nd and 4th would contribute to warmer and more musical sound. Yet measurements show the much cheaper Denon has about the same 2nd harmonic as the SR8015, and has much lower high order odd harmonics than the 8015. So again, you can believe in science, or you can choose to believe Marantz marketing talks. Because of Marantz marketing claims I actually tried extra hard to hear that warm and musical sound, all I heard was neutral sound, using the best contents that I have that are of excellent recording quality. Manufacturers tend to give reasons for people to hear the difference, because they know that's how the minds work, they would hear, or see what they were told repeatedly to hear and/or see. It took me many years to become smarter and less influenced by such tactics.

I picked the SR8015 to compare, because the other Marantz units, even the most expensive AV8805 measured much worse. If you picked something like the SR6014, 7015, or AV7705 to compare the likes of the newer Denon AVRs that have the AKM DAC chips, you will see the same kinds of objective reviews that don't support the subjective reviews.


index.php
index.php
 

dlaloum

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The price of other electronics like TVs, computers, speakers don't seem to support your theory. How can the Onkyo, Pioneer, and Integra offer their top product for $1,400 and now $1,600.
Onkyo, Integra, Pioneer, have not released a "top product" for quite a few years (2019?) - the current generation of AVR's are mid-market / mass-market and not flagship.

There have been signs of their preparing the RZ70 and RZ90 models (including interviews where they talked about auditioning these) but no formal announcements, and no sign of the AVR's and AVP's
 

peng

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Onkyo, Integra, Pioneer, have not released a "top product" for quite a few years (2019?) - the current generation of AVR's are mid-market / mass-market and not flagship.

There have been signs of their preparing the RZ70 and RZ90 models (including interviews where they talked about auditioning these) but no formal announcements, and no sign of the AVR's and AVP's

Exactly, Onkyo/Integra has not released any flagship avrs and avps yet, so we don't know their price points yet.
 

Roland68

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Onkyo, Integra, Pioneer, have not released a "top product" for quite a few years (2019?) - the current generation of AVR's are mid-market / mass-market and not flagship.

There have been signs of their preparing the RZ70 and RZ90 models (including interviews where they talked about auditioning these) but no formal announcements, and no sign of the AVR's and AVP's
You must not forget that Onkyo and Pioneer got into serious trouble during this time. Without the takeover, it would no longer exist.
The new owners have no money to give away. When they have realigned, it will be interesting to see if and which new AVRs they will release.

The market has changed a lot, especially in the last few years. Especially in the extremely important lower price segment up to about 1000 €/$.
5-10 years ago there were still 5-20 AVRs in this price segment in the EU at every major electronics discounter (physical shops). Then soundbars, pseudo 5.1 systems, inexpensive complete AV systems took over the largest area of sales up to 1000 €/$.
Today, many of these discounters have completely removed AVRs from their range, 1-5 different AVRs are a lot.
 
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Rottmannash

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Consolidation has reduced competition in the market. There are only a few core platforms from which many different brands are designed. There are only a few independent designs. All the rest are just customizations of the OEM board.
Are most of the HDMI boards used in AVRs manufactured by one company?
 
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techsamurai

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Onkyo, Integra, Pioneer, have not released a "top product" for quite a few years (2019?) - the current generation of AVR's are mid-market / mass-market and not flagship.

There have been signs of their preparing the RZ70 and RZ90 models (including interviews where they talked about auditioning these) but no formal announcements, and no sign of the AVR's and AVP's

The RZ50 is the current top product in their lineup - they have 5 models on Crutchfield's website.

Agreed, the RZ50 isn't their best offering of all time but it does have Dirac which propels it ahead of many models from competitors.

The benchmarking issue is a real pita because the thing is pretty powerful - and probably more powerful than the Denon 4000 series and Marantz 7000 series at a fraction of the cost. They should have sorted that out.

Along with Dirac and pre-outs, it would have made for a very compelling option.
 

dlaloum

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Are most of the HDMI boards used in AVRs manufactured by one company?
No, but the chips used are almost universally from the same one or 2 companies - I think in AVR's it is mostly Analog Devices chips

Each manufacturer then designs their own board from the reference designs provided by AD.... and then they often share that board between multiple models
 

Roland68

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The RZ50 is the current top product in their lineup - they have 5 models on Crutchfield's website.

Agreed, the RZ50 isn't their best offering of all time but it does have Dirac which propels it ahead of many models from competitors.

The benchmarking issue is a real pita because the thing is pretty powerful - and probably more powerful than the Denon 4000 series and Marantz 7000 series at a fraction of the cost. They should have sorted that out.

Along with Dirac and pre-outs, it would have made for a very compelling option.
Since the Onkyo has Dirac and all pre-outs, what's missing then?
 

dlaloum

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The RZ50 is the current top product in their lineup - they have 5 models on Crutchfield's website.

Agreed, the RZ50 isn't their best offering of all time but it does have Dirac which propels it ahead of many models from competitors.

The benchmarking issue is a real pita because the thing is pretty powerful - and probably more powerful than the Denon 4000 series and Marantz 7000 series at a fraction of the cost. They should have sorted that out.

Along with Dirac and pre-outs, it would have made for a very compelling option.
Yes, it is their current top model - but it's market segment is mass market / mid market.

Onkyo still have the flagship models of the previous generation(s) on their website.

The RZ50 was always intended to be the baby of the RZ range.

And we have video interviews with the Onkyo engineers and Voxx management, mentioning listening tests of the "model above the RZ70" implicitly confirming both the RZ70 and the RZ90.

So they still have flagship models - the TOTL is the RZ5100 :

Although I think you will find it difficult to find any stock in retail - but there are a few still out there...

The USA website no longer shows the RZ5100 (although it still has the RZ1100 from the same generation)

They have yet to replace the RZ5100 or RZ3400 (which would be replaced by RZ90 and RZ70 respectively) - the RZ840 was the model replaced by the current RZ50. (Note that the RZ3400 was a ClassD AVR... based on using the chassis picked up from Pioneer when they merged it in, as were several generations of predecessor AVR's... hence the expectation that the RZ70 and RZ90 are likely to be ClassD)
 
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techsamurai

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Since the Onkyo has Dirac and all pre-outs, what's missing then?
It has a problem benching - check the review. If it delivered 100 watts in 7 channels, this thread would have been redundant as you could just buy the RZ50 and be done with it.
 

dlaloum

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Since the Onkyo has Dirac and all pre-outs, what's missing then?
Multi-Sub with DLBC, more power, most likely based on Class-D power amps (as per the last few Onkyo generations' flagships), and possibly more channels.
 

dlaloum

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It has a problem benching - check the review. If it delivered 100 watts in 7 channels, this thread would have been redundant as you could just buy the RZ50 and be done with it.

It benched at 135W @ 8ohm two channel driven, which is pretty good in this market segment! (and above the rated power from the specs)

Typically most AVR's claim 70% power all channels driven - but I have not seen it tested anywhere. (it's rated power is 120W @ 8ohm stereo... so you would expect circa 84W max all channels driven... but it bettered its specs, so it may well achieve 100W/ch, but I have not seen it tested - 70% of 135W is 94.5W)

It's main competitor costs substantially more, and only achieves 114W@8ohm stereo (Denon X3800)

The "issues" on the lab bench related to the self protection (AKA "Nanny) circuit, which after 30+ seconds of continuous 5W output into 4ohm, knobbled the power output, reducing it to around 30W... and then requires a hard reset to bring it out of Nanny mode. - However, we have no evidence to date, of this happening in actual use in real life (as opposed to on the lab bench). Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But still... it is a fairly draconian nanny circuit.

Pre-outs provided an excellent output, one of the best in its market segment

Test is here, with all its controversy:
 
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techsamurai

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Multi-Sub with DLBC, more power, most likely based on Class-D power amps (as per the last few Onkyo generations' flagships), and possibly more channels.

Personally, I don't need all those. I'd take better stereo and music for the front stage because that would have the biggest impact in movies, shows, and games. Dynamics are also very important - good capacitance matters along with the ability to hit 300-400 watts when needed.
 
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