Why are AVR’s cheaper than Integrated?

[krabapple]

Last AVR I owned was a NAD in 2001 that I bought at a garage sale for $20. Was from 1998, I believe? The sound, subjectively, sounded like shit. I cleaned it up and flipped it for a little change.

Maybe it was broken. Or the 'soft clipping' button was or wasn't pushed in. There's no other particular objective reason it should have sounded like shit, unless you were overdriving it.

I’m thinking I can’t go wrong with a Yamaha R-N803. I still enjoy a few local sport’s stations on the dial.

Yamaha's room correction DSP (YPAO) is not one I've experienced. Otherwise, with the usual caveats about power, as an amp it'll sound like another AVR. AVRs are commodities* that differ mainly in # of channels, input/output # and type, and sound-altering DSP options.



*So are 'integrateds', for that matter.

 

[sojun80]

If you get pre-out's with the AVR (they tend to cost around $1300 right now) then you can hook up amps and get extra power. Hooking up 6-11 speakers to these AVRs is stretching the power supply quite a bit. I'm adding some very affordable amps to my AVR and can still idrac it just fine

Also be sure to add 2+ subwoofers that go down to 15-25hz. I don't consider myself an audiophile at all (even consider the term kind of an insult?). I just want it to sound like a rock concert.

 

[dorakeg]

I believe I know. I’ve been in the hobby for three decades and have only owned two channel (stereo)— analog and digital.

However, Im bored and looking at getting into multi-channel
for my SACD, BluRay, and CDs. I’m looking at some AVR’s under $1k and am blown away at the amenities I get.

Is it because they’re mass made? Is it a flaw in the system and I should of been buying AVR’s all along? Anyway — just seems like I’m going to get way more for an AVR than I would any other amp.

IMHO, I wouldn't say that AVRs are cheaper. Using Sony DH190 as an example, budget integrated amps are widely available too.

 

[caioferrari]

I was looking to answer that. There is some differences, for example, at Marantz line up.
If you compare a Integrated like PM6007 or PM7000 with a NR1711 you will notice diferences like: Lower distortion levels, bigger power supply, a massive heat sink, larger supply capacitors…
The question for me is: does it worth?

If we get a NR1510 for stereo, we’re going to pay less, get more power and way more features like bass management, equalizer, Audissey etc.

I was looking if measurements (hey, @amirm ) or blind tests could answer that for us.

 

[Ron Texas]

Mass production.

 

[caioferrari]

Mass production.

Does it justify the massive value difference?

Because there Is measurable differences on amplifier output in favor of Integrated amps

 

[Ron Texas]

Does it justify the massive value difference?

Because there Is measurable differences on amplifier output in favor of Integrated amps

I don't know if the value difference is justified, or even how to calculate it, but it does account for the price difference.

 

[caioferrari]

I don't know if the value difference is justified, or even how to calculate it, but it does account for the price difference.

The question is: are audible differences or just paper differences ?

This is the main question

 

[Ron Texas]

The question is: are audible differences or just paper differences ?

This is the main question

With electronics most of the time the differences are on paper.

 

[Doodski]

With integrated amps it really is a question of what is the output power and at what current? How linear is this amp both from signal input to the amp output and how is the linearity of the power supply and amp output transistors circuitry topography? Many integrateds follow the small output power rule, 4 Ohms capable and discreet outputs and they slap on a snazzy model number and make it out like it challenges the British amps or something silly like that in the press. The reality is most of them are not superior anything but there are models with design features that are worthy of respect. I suggest integrated amps at more than ~80 W/ch and bigger. Up to 120 W/ch is good and then after that you might want a class D power amp.

 

[Waxx]

The thing is with integrated amps, my marantz PM5004 is 12 years old, and hardly shows any signs of use, while it's used daily, now in my office. My fathers Denon integrated (don't know the model number by heart) is from the early 1990's and is also still in almost new state. Both are very standard class AB transistor amps, following the classic layout and sound fairly good in reality. No AVR last that long in my experience, they break or get outdated on software.

 

[dlaloum]

The thing is with integrated amps, my marantz PM5004 is 12 years old, and hardly shows any signs of use, while it's used daily, now in my office. My fathers Denon integrated (don't know the model number by heart) is from the early 1990's and is also still in almost new state. Both are very standard class AB transistor amps, following the classic layout and sound fairly good in reality. No AVR last that long in my experience, they break or get outdated on software.

It does depend what you use them for - my 2008 Onkyo AVR had a failed HDMI board - so none of the HDMI inputs worked - but the analogue and SPDIF inputs continued working perfectly.

I used it as an integrated for quite a few years after the HDMI failure...

Yes AVR's software may become dated, but their base functionality as an integrated continues just fine - their role as the center of an AV system may cease, but they still can be a very effective integrated, often with the bonus of RoomEQ added in.

 

[caioferrari]

All we can say for now is that we don’t know for sure if there os a superior sound quality on integrated amps compared to AVR.
‍

 

[steve59]

Odds are an AVR system isn't going to have demanding hi-end speakers connected to them so don't have to be stable down to 2 ohms and class d is much less expensive per watt. less space needed for cooling. I use an avr for my HT and 2 channel components for my stereo. first world problems. I love America!

 

[Trell]

Odds are an AVR system isn't going to have demanding hi-end speakers connected to them so don't have to be stable down to 2 ohms and class d is much less expensive per watt. less space needed for cooling. I use an avr for my HT and 2 channel components for my stereo. first world problems. I love America!

A high-end passive speaker certainly does not have to dip into low 2 Ohm. Some do some do not.

 

[dlaloum]

Odds are an AVR system isn't going to have demanding hi-end speakers connected to them so don't have to be stable down to 2 ohms and class d is much less expensive per watt. less space needed for cooling. I use an avr for my HT and 2 channel components for my stereo. first world problems. I love America!

I would suggest that your assumptions are flawed.

If AVR's didn't have demanding speakers connected to them, then there would be very little demand for external power amps to mate with those same AVR's - and yet the market for AV Power amps is booming.

Reality is that there is a seperation between mass market Home Theater in a Box type systems (whether marketed as HTIAB or as a curated "system") where the entire system is carefully calibrated to a price bracket, and the speakers are typically relatively undemanding, and the mid and upper end of the AV market, where many of the speakers are much more demanding - and many of us run external power amps as a result.

Once you get into the Dirac/Audyssey enabled part of the market, Onkyo RZ50, Denon X3800 and up ... you are in a price bracket where a substantial minority of users will need a better power amp to get the most from their speakers.
That minority expands as you go further upmarket... hence seperates start to make more sense once you get to the X6700 / A1H levels (although many of us prefer to use an AVR with pre-outs, and hybridise things, using the internal amps for the much easier to drive surrounds and heights).

 

[krabapple]

I would suggest that your assumptions are flawed.

If AVR's didn't have demanding speakers connected to them, then there would be very little demand for external power amps to mate with those same AVR's - and yet the market for AV Power amps is booming.

How much of that demand is driven by *actual* power need versus the usual audiophile belief systems? You don't know, and neither do I.

Reality is that there is a seperation between mass market Home Theater in a Box type systems (whether marketed as HTIAB or as a curated "system") where the entire system is carefully calibrated to a price bracket, and the speakers are typically relatively undemanding, and the mid and upper end of the AV market, where many of the speakers are much more demanding - and many of us run external power amps as a result.

Once you get into the Dirac/Audyssey enabled part of the market, Onkyo RZ50, Denon X3800 and up ... you are in a price bracket where a substantial minority of users will need a better power amp to get the most from their speakers.

That really depends on how loud they like to listen

 

[dlaloum]

That really depends on how loud they like to listen

No - that is the usual myth - the issue in most cases is CURRENT... and loudness desired is a lesser factor

With my 86db/wm 4ohm speakers, and listening at a typical 70db at MLP (distance 2.3m from the speakers)

Typical power use is well under 5W with maximum peaks at under 16W - so power / loudness is NOT the issue.

The AVR sounds poor, due to lack of current - moving Front L&R onto an external poweramp cleared it up right away.

The speakers were plenty loud just on the AVR - but the sound lost focus, dialogue was not clear, imaging was "fuzzy" - putting L&R on the external power amp resolved these issues immediately.

Most (mass market) AVR's simply don't have a sufficiently robust power supply to handle real life 4 ohm speakers (ie: speakers nominally 4 ohm with lowest impedances typically well under 3 ohm - under 2 ohm not unusual).

Yes when setting up there is a need to work through loudness/power calculations - but these need to be done at/with the worst case impedances of the speakers in use... and most amps/AVR's don't provide specifications for 2Ohm.

My speakers bottom out at 1.6ohm - hence the issue is almost never power/loudness, and in reality is almost always current related (and possibly stability, as some amp designs can get unstable into low impedance loads)

 

[Beave]

What speakers?

 

[krabapple]

No - that is the usual myth - the issue in most cases is CURRENT... and loudness desired is a lesser factor

With my 86db/wm 4ohm speakers, and listening at a typical 70db at MLP (distance 2.3m from the speakers)

Typical power use is well under 5W with maximum peaks at under 16W - so power / loudness is NOT the issue.

The AVR sounds poor, due to lack of current - moving Front L&R onto an external poweramp cleared it up right away.

The speakers were plenty loud just on the AVR - but the sound lost focus, dialogue was not clear, imaging was "fuzzy" - putting L&R on the external power amp resolved these issues immediately.

As explanations go, this is rather...subjective?

Most (mass market) AVR's simply don't have a sufficiently robust power supply to handle real life 4 ohm speakers (ie: speakers nominally 4 ohm with lowest impedances typically well under 3 ohm - under 2 ohm not unusual).

What is it about them in particular that they can't 'handle'?

Yes when setting up there is a need to work through loudness/power calculations - but these need to be done at/with the worst case impedances of the speakers in use... and most amps/AVR's don't provide specifications for 2Ohm.

My speakers bottom out at 1.6ohm - hence the issue is almost never power/loudness, and in reality is almost always current related (and possibly stability, as some amp designs can get unstable into low impedance loads)

I'm still rather unclear how current (amperage) itself , divorced from power, is effecting this remarkable positive difference. And yes, let's assume the amp is not being asked to do what it wasn't properly designed to do.