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Why Are Audiophiles so Bound and Determined to Make Others Waste Money

Duke

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"Why Are Audiophiles so Bound and Determined to Make Others Waste Money" is not the sort of question I'm totally comfortable with.

It seems to me this kind of phrasing attributes sinister motives to those we are disagreeing with. It also assumes facts which are not in evidence, sort of like if someone says to me, why do you repeatedly beat your wife and then lie about it?

I have found that most people I disagree with are neither evil nor idiots, but are being rational based on their experiences and priorities. I find that I'm more open to re-evaluating my own position and modifying or even reversing it when I don't feel like I have to first clear my name of false accusations (I hardly ever beat my wife).

As an alternative, perhaps we can assume that their motives are as virtuous as ours, even if our experiences and priorities and conclusions are different.

Let me quote Matt Hooper:

I've never met an audiophile who wasn't essentially motivated by achieving the performance they were after, so I feel charitable in inferring the motivations of others, including people in a position to spend a lot more than me on their system.


Imo this same general principle (assuming that others' motivations are not so different from our own, even if their conclusions are) applies to topics far more divisive than objectivist vs subjectivist in home audio, but this is a good place to start.
 

escksu

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On Reddit, in a discussion with a certain user (who insisted that every time they upgraded their amp, their headphones became 'clearer'), I said something to the effect of "if your amp can drive your headphones to the volume you want with no distortion, then there's no reason to get a more powerful one".

Another user came along and complained that I couldn't just let people enjoy their purchases. Why exactly are these people so insistent on their right to lead people to spend loads of money on the back of no evidence at all? It drives me absolutely crazy.

Well, its a hobby and the sky is the limit!!! To some $30 pair of USB powered speakers is good enough. Some requires $200 or even $1000. Then others only swear by the most expensive ones....IT does not only happen to audio, other stuffs too, PC, cars etc......
 

goldenears

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As an alternative, perhaps we can assume that their motives are as virtuous as ours, even if our experiences and priorities and conclusions are different.

Voice of reason here. I'll try to keep this in mind.

I just find it difficult to stay silent when they are talking about things that I'm so sure aren't true. Especially when I think it will influence others and increase the amount of disinformation out there in the world, and there's way too much of that already.

1620352001847.png


https://xkcd.com/386/
 
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Duke

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I just find it difficult to stay silent when they are talking about things that I'm so sure aren't true. Especially when I think it will influence others and increase the amount of disinformation out there in the world, and there's way too much of that already.

I hosted an audio club meeting about twelve years ago. One of the attendees put on a couple of recordings he had brought and then asked if my preamplifier inverted phase. I said I didn't think so, and refrained from telling him that I'd investigated and tried to hear phase inversion in the past and considered its effects to be inaudible (and therefore imaginary). He said that he was 95% sure the phase was being inverted. I nodded politely.

Next day I called the preamplifier manufacturer who confirmed that it DID invert phase. Granted his chance of being right was 50%, but what stood out to me was his expression of near-certainty about something which was inaudible to me. He allowed for the possibility that he was mistaken, while expressing his high degree of confidence in what his ears where telling him.

Said attendee became one of my beta testers, despite (or perhaps because of) the fact that I can neither hear nor explain what he evidently can hear.
 

Newman

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50% isn't evidence
 

Duke

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50% isn't evidence

In coming up with that 50% figure I made the simplifying assumption that half of all preamplifiers invert phase. The actual percentage is probably a lot lower. From what I have read, in practice it is primarily simple single-tube-per-channel preamps which invert phase (and mine did not fit that description), which implies that his actual odds of being right about the preamp inverting phase were lower.

I subsequently got a preamplifier with a phase inversion switch and he could tell without looking which position it was in with a recording that he was familiar with, WITHOUT even doing an A/B comparison (he was just going by aural memory). I got bored after he did it three or four times in a row and we moved on to other things.

To be fair, he has a recording studio background, which I did not know about at the time.
 
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BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp

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"Why Are Audiophiles so Bound and Determined to Make Others Waste Money" is not the sort of question I'm totally comfortable with.

It seems to me this kind of phrasing attributes sinister motives to those we are disagreeing with. It also assumes facts which are not in evidence, sort of like if someone says to me, why do you repeatedly beat your wife and then lie about it?

I mean, I'm obviously being facetious in the title. Clearly, I don't believe that they're knowingly lying in an effort to waste other people's money. They just reject any evidence against their claims because they want to feel their purchases are justified, which also convinces others to waste their money similarly.

In fact, I'd bet others potentially wasting money doesn't occur to a lot of people making this argument.
 

Duke

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I mean, I'm obviously being facetious in the title. Clearly, I don't believe that they're knowingly lying in an effort to waste other people's money.

Thanks for clarifying. On the one hand sometimes I'm a little dense, and on the other hand sometimes I'm a LOT dense.
 

TimF

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As the Walmart motto goes: If we put it on the shelves they will buy it.
 
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BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp

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Thanks for clarifying. On the one hand sometimes I'm a little dense, and on the other hand sometimes I'm a LOT dense.

Eh, it's also the internet. I'm sure my hyperbole probably just didn't land right without tone-of-voice to convey it.
 

WickedInsignia

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No need to become moral guardians over a broad term. How about "Select audiophiles", "some audio enthusiasts", "the entirety of Stereophile"...whatever best describes the segment of consumers in audio that do not acknowledge or downright deny objective proof that a product is inferior to cheaper alternatives or lies to the buyer about its capabilities.

Now with that out of the way...I'd assume it's much like any other cult-like group or hobby. If you're having fun, you don't want to be told why you shouldn't. If you've just bought an $800 pair of headphones, you don't want to be told that it completely lacks treble extension and has high levels of distortion. You're having fun with it....the measurements are just wrong! Or they never mattered anyway!

This is deceptively easy to succumb to. If you're unaware of how important the Harman Target actually is for example, it's quite easy to disregard it. You know what sounds good so what is this funny graph to tell you otherwise?
We see this in life constantly. A respect for critical thinking and objectivity is not built into everyone. Many treat science like it is just a "suggestion" or a flawed argument from a work colleague. They can't draw the line between their iPhone and all of the irrefutable logic that allows it to exist.

It's also worth acknowledging that we live in a world with a dizzying proportion of anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists, QAnon supporters and high-school dropouts.
There is bound to be a crossover. The Reddit anon you're arguing with about the effectiveness of $5000 cables has another tab open with the latest lizard person conspiracy. This week it's Jared Leto!

Don't become too bothered OP, it's just the internet. Everyone is here, and everyone has an equally loud voice regardless of whether they should be allowed to have it.
 

Marc v E

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To the OP: it's simple really, our senses are flawed but nobody wants to admit it, and everybody wants the right to be wrong.

Ingrained in our society it seems to be the pinnacle of social behaviour to let everybody have their own opinion. So even if they are plainly mistaken, they have a right to be mistaken. "I hear improvements, so they must be there".
Same with people trying to debunk science and those believing that the American elections were stolen. They are not open to debate because they are right.
 
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Newman

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In coming up with that 50% figure I made the simplifying assumption that half of all preamplifiers invert phase. The actual percentage is probably a lot lower. From what I have read, in practice it is primarily simple single-tube-per-channel preamps which invert phase (and mine did not fit that description), which implies that his actual odds of being right about the preamp inverting phase were lower.

I subsequently got a preamplifier with a phase inversion switch and he could tell without looking which position it was in with a recording that he was familiar with, WITHOUT even doing an A/B comparison (he was just going by aural memory). I got bored after he did it three or four times in a row and we moved on to other things.

To be fair, he has a recording studio background, which I did not know about at the time.

So you knew better than to say 50%, but you said it anyway....
 

LightninBoy

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This reminds me of an editorial I read in one of the audio mags many years back. An acquaintance who was totally new to audio had reached out to this editor to help him select the parts for a nice stereo system. It was relatively low budget - something around $1500 for the whole kit. The editor steered him away from the standard consumer fare at the big box stores and towards value oriented hi-fi gear. The point of the article was to say how lucky this acquaintance was to know the editor of an audio mag and to be given such great advice. And actually, I remember thinking the main system components weren't bad - except for this: the editor convinced the newbie to spend $300 on cables. And it was after this tidbit where the writer lamented how consumers without his knowledge would miss out because they wouldn't know to factor cables into their budget. Oh the irony.
 

Newman

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:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
 

Duke

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So you knew better than to say 50%, but you said it anyway....

No, I didn't think it through at first.

If you're trying to pick a fight, you're going to have to try harder than that.
 

goldenears

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It's also worth acknowledging that we live in a world with a dizzying proportion of anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theorists, QAnon supporters and high-school dropouts.

The media does not help with always trying to have two sides to every story.

Many things are so well-proven that our whole society actually relies on them being correct, yet the media still on occasion tries to give the opposing view equal time.

I think this has something to do with why some people think that science is just a different opinion. It's not opinion, it's science, and it has been rigorously proven. When 99% of experts agree on something, it's not right to give Jim-Bob equal time for his unfounded, insane ideas. Then every Jim-Bob thinks he should also be given time and have his opinions not dismissed outright. But maybe I'm being uncharitable again...
 

Newman

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Well said.
 

Ilkless

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I think the most insidious of the lot are the Alan Shaw (Harbeth) and Rob Watts types. Guys who do have significant technical expertise, but manipulate it to rationalise their own prejudices. The cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics are often much more subliminal in these cases. This does not just apply to industry professionals, but also enthusiasts as well (insofar as both are distinct from each other).

I've spoken to several neuro-psych researcher types (particularly on Reddit) who again deploy their expertise to write extensive apologias for their pet designers and equipment of choice, lacking the self-awareness to realise they are trying to extend their own expertise into fundamental, settled physics with pseudoscientific babble. And plenty of those faux anti-intellectual moderate types like SBAF rally around the lot.
 
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