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Why Are Audiophiles so Bound and Determined to Make Others Waste Money

goldenears

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Art was first a tool on a cave used as a utility to tell a story, somehow it turned into a commodity that only the wealthy and powerful could enjoy.

I agree with everything you wrote, but also would like to note that I see young people now with portable bluetooth speakers tethered to their phones that offer better sound quality even out on a beach or wherever, than I had ever heard until I was in my teen years. Maybe this democratization of technology will create new kinds of social events.

Now anybody can access or share pretty much any type of music, in pretty good quality, anywhere and at any time. Small groups can have their own social listening parties. I wish I had that when I was younger.
 
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syn08

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I really liked the take syn08 had. Seeing the black sheep picture they use really reminded me of my own personality.

Really? The black sheep avatar indeed reflects my personality, only because it is nothing but the logo of a long gone band named Minor Threat, one of my all time favorites.
 

Mart68

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I agree with everything you wrote, but also would like to note that I see young people now with portable bluetooth speakers tethered to their phones that offer better sound quality even out on a beach or wherever, than I had ever heard until I was in my teen years. Maybe this democratization of technology will create new kinds of social events.

Now anybody can access or share pretty much any type of music, in pretty good quality, anywhere and at any time. Small groups can have their own social listening parties. I wish I had that when I was younger.
I agree with everything you wrote, but also would like to note that I see young people now with portable bluetooth speakers tethered to their phones that offer better sound quality even out on a beach or wherever, than I had ever heard until I was in my teen years. Maybe this democratization of technology will create new kinds of social events.

Now anybody can access or share pretty much any type of music, in pretty good quality, anywhere and at any time. Small groups can have their own social listening parties. I wish I had that when I was younger.
I agree with everything you wrote, but also would like to note that I see young people now with portable bluetooth speakers tethered to their phones that offer better sound quality even out on a beach or wherever, than I had ever heard until I was in my teen years. Maybe this democratization of technology will create new kinds of social events.

Now anybody can access or share pretty much any type of music, in pretty good quality, anywhere and at any time. Small groups can have their own social listening parties. I wish I had that when I was younger.

Not so sure about that. maybe I have only heard rubbish portable bluetooth speakers but I'd say they don't sound as good as FM through the big Ferguson transistor radio that was on constantly in our kitchen through the 1970s and '80s.

Hearing something you liked and listening intently to the DJ in the hope that he would say what it was. Then going out and scouring the shops to find the record.

Going round to a friend's place specifically to listen to whatever new album he had just bought (and then borrowing it to tape it). That was a big event as records were expensive back then, each one was a valuable artefact. Your mate would call you and say 'Have you taped it yet? I want it back!' And when you bought a record they would come round your place to do the same.

Now almost everything is available to everyone at the swipe of a screen, there's no value added to the experience. I don't envy the youngsters one bit.
 
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BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp

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Now almost everything is available to everyone at the swipe of a screen, there's no value added to the experience. I don't envy the youngsters one bit.

I think you're right that music listening is less of a direct social experience nowadays, since everything is available on streaming platforms. It's not all bad, but there's definitely been an aspect lost there.
 

goldenears

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Not so sure about that. maybe I have only heard rubbish portable bluetooth speakers but I'd say they don't sound as good as FM through the big Ferguson transistor radio that was on constantly in our kitchen through the 1970s and '80s.

I think the ok bluetooth speakers sound better than FM radio did, at least in my house in the 90s. Sure the bad ones are worse but there are reasonable ones as well.

Regardless, a bluetooth speaker on which you can choose to play literally any music out there instantly without ads seems pretty powerful. Pity all the music they seem to choose is trash. ;) (just my anecdotal experience of course).

Now almost everything is available to everyone at the swipe of a screen, there's no value added to the experience.

The value added seems to be inconvenience? The youngsters are free to go to their friends places regardless. I like convenience.

Maybe they can find other things to enjoy the anticipation of.

I do think that only having a limited number of albums, you really listened carefully to what you had.
 

TurtlePaul

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Back to the original question of why some want to "just let people enjoy their purchases":

I think one way to understand audiophilia is to look through the lens of a collector or tinkerer. It isn't the destination it is the journey along the way: the audiophile wants to always believe there is some other nirvana to be discovered in the sound because if you achieve nirvana (or close enough) you can no longer collect, you can no longer tinker.

I have looked at some of my hobbies and on self-reflection (or really more likely because of my wife) have come to the realization that I have collecting and tinkering tendencies. Not that I am OCD or a hoarder or anything, but something to keep in mind about oneself.
 

Mart68

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I think the ok bluetooth speakers sound better than FM radio did, at least in my house in the 90s. Sure the bad ones are worse but there are reasonable ones as well.

Regardless, a bluetooth speaker on which you can choose to play literally any music out there instantly without ads seems pretty powerful. Pity all the music they seem to choose is trash. ;) (just my anecdotal experience of course).



The value added seems to be inconvenience? The youngsters are free to go to their friends places regardless. I like convenience.

Maybe they can find other things to enjoy the anticipation of.

I do think that only having a limited number of albums, you really listened carefully to what you had.

I have only heard a few portable blue tooth speakers so maybe I did just hear poor ones.

yes the value added was partly due to the inconvenience, you had to go out and hunt down music rather than just pressing a button. And - my god! - you had to pay for it. And it was expensive! My first job paid £10/day when an album cost £5

So you got your money's worth (and the time and effort back) by listening to the record many times, gradually picking up on all the little aspects of the sound that the artist spent so long creating, and so appreciation was massively enhanced.

I'm reminded of the 'Starship Troopers' maxim: 'Something given has no value.' Or in this case, 'Something ubiquitous has no value.'
 

nerdstrike

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Slightly off topic, but there was an article some years back that talked about a class of consumer termed "harbingers of doom". If these people bought your product, you knew it would fail in the greater market. I find that idea fascinating.

I guess the subject of this thread is the opposite kind - those who would breathlessly praise a product because they bought it or because they perceive themselves as a trend-setter or somesuch, or because they need to post-hoc rationalise their impulsive acquisitions. The Apple fanboys, the kid with new trainers in the playground, the AudioQuisling, the fashion police.

We've all been there to some extent seeking validation of our choices. In some regards, a rationalist approach to purchases practically requires us to test our assumptions about the rightness of our choices, but in a way that does not demand the response we want to hear. It's much more tedious and ego-threatening to have someone turn up and say "your hifi sounds like regular-fi" than to rave excitedly about nanotube interconnects in an attempt to be infectious with enthusiasm.

There are some very primitive-brain behaviours going on around the themes of insecurity, social status through impressive possessions or frivolous expenditure like some kind of bowerbird.
 

rdenney

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Just supposing that part of the hobby is buying stuff. I'm unpersuaded that this represents moral decay sufficient to go on rants about it, or be made crazy by it.

There are backwoods timber-cutters (when I lived in Austin, Texas, the term was "cedar-choppers") whose garage holds a $60,000 bass boat, with a 250-HP engine, hauled by an $80,000 truck, the justification for which was towing the bass boat. There are those who catch many more fish who keep a john-boat with a 25-HP outboard by the side of their shed and haul it it with a 20-year-old work truck. The former makes admittedly lame use-case excuses, like, "It gets me to the fishing spots quicker," as if they are professional fishing competitors and prize winnings are riding on their ability to plane their bass boat at 40 mph. Most of the time, the john-boat owner just knows where the fish are and goes there for dinner. But is it anyone's job, other than the guy's spouse, to complain of irrational expense? The guys like him that made that boat need groceries, too. If that's his hobby, and he is fulfilling the other responsibilities of life, then it doesn't seem my job to call him a fool or a materialist.

I collect mechanical wristwatches--surely a useless and expensive exercise if there ever was one. But I admire the workmanship and craft, and I deeply enjoy the research into the history of the companies I collect. I also admire the design, and while I don't cover myself in tattoos I don't mind just a bit of decoration, the value of which only I and a few like-minded friends appreciate. But there are those on watch forums who feel it is their duty to inform me that a $10 quartz watch is more accurate than my nicest mechanical watch (which isn't actually true--I do have one mechanical watch that for some reason runs to quartz accuracy, but I didn't expect it). They talk about how Bill Gates wears a $15 Casio, and Warren Buffet blah, blah, blah. It does make me wonder why they are on a watch forum--it's as if they feel it their job to go on anti-materialism rants on every forum where the participants spend lots of money on their hobby.

There are those who spend tens of thousands on amateur telescopes. Are they doing science with those? No. They are pursuing it just for the rush of seeing that little bit of additional detail in the Ring Nebula or the Cassini Division, or just that hint of purple in the Horsehead Nebula. Are they subject to confirmation bias? You betcha. Is there a cadre of scientists on their amateur astronomy forums telling them that they are wasting their time and money, because nobody does science that way anyway? Probably, but I'll bet not professional scientists, who are also hobbyists when off-duty, if they participate in amateur forums at all.

The only justification required for spending a lot of money on a hobby item is that I want it and I have the money. The problem is not the spending, but the insistence on affirmation. If I think somebody bought foolishly, and have enough personal experience with it to justify that thought, I simply ignore the thread where they seek that affirmation. Or (in the case of watches I don't much like but for some reason feel obligated to respond), I might say, "wear it in good health." But if they ask me about it before making the purchase, I'll give them an honest and complete opinion, assuming I actually know anything myself. (My own rants concern people who eagerly trumpet stuff they don't personally know to be true, having heard it on the Internet from others who are doing the same thing--this is how the boutique products became hip in the first place, but it's a temptation to which those who oppose boutique products can also succumb.)

Rick "listen in good health" Denney
 

2M2B

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Reddit audio community always been a mess. I used to post there way back when I got the ER4XR after my then ER4PT died, There was always drama if anyone did a ER4SR impression by a few with no clue how driver tech work. Gave up when I got -13 for saying why would review or buy something like ER4SR knowing before hand they don't like it?.
 

mkawa

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before i started understanding measurements i spent quite a money on a system that doesn't measure all that well. it sounds pretty good, but for the money, i could have done much better. that said it's a fantastic HT setup, and with some room correction and development that i know is happening from the manufacturer, it will sound pretty good as well.

another hobby of mine is cars. again i quantify the money i put into that hobby in terms of performance measured in time (seat, mostly, as i'm pretty slow) on an autox track (again, i'm slow, and track days are expensive). most of that performance is seat time, but you can definitely translate eg tires into real time. further, i have a sim racing set up to challenge myself to get faster with more seat time. i don't pour money into that that doesn't make the experience more realistic and applicable to increasing my real world performance. there is a metric here. performance in seconds and seat time to get faster. (that said, there is a huge community of kids goading kids into buying parts they absolutely do not need without any interaction with sanctioned HPDE or racing)

what i think many have a problem with is the completely fabricated differences between high priced audio gear and how people _without_ means are blowing money on it. no one needs 10 pairs of headphones or 5-10 headphone amplifiers with the same number of dacs. a single instrumentation quality amplifier and dac is perfectly sufficient and a little bit of a stretch for a student, or another enthusiast with limited means. autoEQ can turn a single low distortion headphone like the hd800s or k371 into almost any other headphone you would want. i agree that so-called audiophiles are goading these kids into dumping money they don't have to lift veils and other unfortunate psychological phenomena, and that it's really unfortunate.

i don't think it's similar to the watch, boat or other high priced hobby communities, because kids without means aren't being goaded into buying the latest insanely complicated watch action, and don't have access to the docks and piers that one needs to go out boating. there just isn't that much benefit for a kid to be able to tell the time... better. or go fishing (it requires getting up at 5am for one). however, everyone loves music, and if you convince a kid that a veil will be lifted on their favorite tracks and they believe it without counterfactuals, you are taking advantage of them, and that sucks.
 

Robin L

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H-713

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I think that it's very important to distinguish between the average audiophile, the average Reddit audiophile. There are good subreddits, but most of Reddit is a hopeless dumpster fire. It's notoriously poorly moderated.

Most audiophiles I know are pretty chill and don't really care what other people buy. Like most of us, they have preferences and brands that they've had good experiences with, and things that they're maybe less keen on, but don't get too involved with what other people choose.
 

goldenears

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Slightly off topic, but there was an article some years back that talked about a class of consumer termed "harbingers of doom". If these people bought your product, you knew it would fail in the greater market. I find that idea fascinating.

I would love it if you could find that article.

My partner and I have a running joke that we are exactly that, since every time we enjoy a particular food, or restaurant, it seems to go off the market or close down within months.

what i think many have a problem with is the completely fabricated differences between high priced audio gear and how people _without_ means are blowing money on it. no one needs 10 pairs of headphones or 5-10 headphone amplifiers with the same number of dacs.

This is exactly it.

I hate seeing people get duped out of their money, and people doing the duping always seem to be the loudest as well, shouting down any opposition with unfounded talk of "night and day" differences. Oh my god, the power cable people irritate me as well. My god, how could a power cable fix anything when the cables from the power station to the street, and those in the walls are the cheapest possible?? It's just ridiculous.

Their opposition to any talk of blind tests or any attempts to eliminate bias also irks me at a fundamental level, it's demanding that people believe in magic. And not even cheap magic - it's always expensive magic!! Why does the magic always need to be so expensive??!!
 

mkawa

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a magician never gives up her secrets.

but really. abyss. ps audio. more junk i probably don't even know the slightest about. the word interconnect; IT'S A WIRE. my desk is COVERED with hookup wire. connect it between your audio junk and you won't be able to tell the difference between that and your 100$ "reasonably priced interconnect".

i was lucky. when i was a student i was into DIY audio electronics. the idea cardas quad blah blah blah didn't even occur to me since everything internally was kludged together with cheap hookup wire. i didn't cut the foam out of my hd600s to lift the veil (that was a thing back then) because i loved classical music and i just didn't care. also, they were gifts and i sure as hell wasn't going to hack them up. jan meier had oehlbach make some well made long cables for like 30/ea? and i got one because it was longer than the OEM cable. when that cable died i think i got an OEM hd650 cable. i replaced my pads when they went kaput. that was it. i got alessandro MS1s (slightly differently voice grado SR125s) because they sounded a bit better for acoustic guitar, BUT WERE THE SAME PRICE.

i wanted to build a dac, but i didn't want to solder a large SMT chip so i just didn't make one (eventually i made a y2, but that was years later).

at the time though, the only thing that saved me was some basic electronics knowledge (i lusted for a copy of the art of electronics and a more reliable soldering iron, not another 10 pairs of headphones), but a lot of the kids coming in have none of that and there is so so so much more FUD out there these days with reddit, SBAF, head-fi SANS DIY (i was headwize all the way).

sigh. yah, why does the magic have to be so frickin expensive. kids are impressionable and they don't have loads of money. it's a bit melodramatic, but how do these people sleep at night?
 

goldenears

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the word interconnect; IT'S A WIRE.

THIS IS THE WORST ONE FOR SURE. BLOODY INTERCONNECT!!!

i was lucky. when i was a student i was into DIY audio electronics.

Funny, I was very similar. I still do DIY electronics here and there. I believe ignorance is definitely part of the believing in magic. There are legitimate differences in cables and connectors that present itself into the MHz ranges. People who believe in magic use this as justification that there could be audible differences at audio frequencies which is just not true.

It's like they have no idea of scale.

The audible difference between the most expensive cable and a basic working cable is 1/10000th of physically moving the speaker a mm, or tilting your head by one degree. But if you tell them this, they just say, "but I want the best and I'm prepared to pay for it". Sigh.

So then they rabbit on about synergies between the BLOODY $10k INTERCONNECTS between their turntable and tube amps. And of course the $20k INTERCONNECT would have sounded better, but they couldn't quite afford that one. More $$$ always means better magic, and if you ask if they did a blind test, the answer is always, "I didn't need to, it was so obviously better".

Never mind that the albums that they're listening to were recorded using instruments and mics all connected with basic $20 cables that just work.
 
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