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Who would you consider to be an Ethical Manufacturer in the Audio Business?

Sokel

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Ethical has many sides.
Decent wages to people it employs (costs money)
Genuine parts (costs money)
Environmental friendly (yes,also costs money)
After sales service,ease of service,good overall record (costs money)
Decent performance (doesn't necessarily costs,except we put durability too,then it costs money)

If after the above asking prices are decent I consider them ethical.
 
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A manufacturer whose goal is not money, but development of audio devices and people making them.

For example, Elon Musk's goal is not money. To him, money is an obstacle to developing people and resources.

Any company that treats money as the goal should be avoided. Buy from people who treat money as financial obstacles to developing resources.

I mean if making money is the priority, I don't want to buy from you. You actually need to want to make something. Development of resources and people making them should be the priority. I don't want to buy from people who just want to get rich and retire and stop caring about everything.

I hate most people's mindset toward money. It is the reason behind lots of snake oil. If your goal is money, then you have no problem with deceiving people with snake oils and deceptive marketing.
 
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nyxnyxnyx

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jds lab, yamaha, neumann, genelec, rme.... there are many more but it depends on what's considered 'ethical'.
for example, schiit makes both product that cater the ASR crowd and the head-fi crowd, and the CEO is blogposting about his subjectivism every now and then, does that make them 'snake-oily'?
I feel like if we only go with 'measurement-based' criteria then it's still a bit incomplete.
 

restorer-john

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@Sokel 's post is the only sensible reply here. All the rest are just people yelling out their favourite brands.

If I was to attempt to answer, I can only think of Accuphase for the following reasons:

They are a small, ultra high quality manufacturer, using the best parts available.
They retain a highly skilled small workforce.
Their range is not driven by trends and products remain in production for many years. Obsoletion is not an issue.
Spare parts are available for many decades. I ordered and received a volume knob for the first amplifier made in 1972.
They have zero debt, are fully funded and private- they answer to no-one except themselves.
Their products last forever- seriously, they just don't fail and if they do, they can be fixed at a reasonable cost.
You can send back any Accuphase product to Japan and they will fix it (at a cost).
They are fiercely loyal to their dealers in each country. Sure that keeps prices up, but competition on their own parallel imported gear is not what they are after.

Maybe they underpay their workers, discharge chemicals into a local stream and don't fix the leaking staff toilet, but I like to think otherwise. :)
 

blueone

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@Sokel 's post is the only sensible reply here. All the rest are just people yelling out their favourite brands.
That's not always true, John. Benchmark Media is well known to do what's right for the customer, whatever it takes. And their products just plain work right for a long time.

ATI is another company like that. I had a channel fail on my AT3005 amplifier. A bad cap, naturally. The amp was technically out of warranty, and they just had me send them the bad channel board, and they repaired it and sent it back. No charge. (Or sent me a new one, I'm not sure which.) No charge for shipping the board back to me either. Even when I bought it they exceeded expectations. I actually ordered an AT3004, and they didn't have any 3004 back plates in stock, so they made me an AT3005 for the same price as I was paying for the AT3004.

When I needed another amp for the HT system, I ordered another ATI. I didn't even have a second thought.

As for Sokel's post, both Benchmark and ATI products are made in US. And neither company is wasting a lot of money on packaging bling, to say the least. The AT3005 is boat anchor heavy, which is unnecessary these days with Class D amps being perfected, and not very pretty at all, but it works.

Edit: Apologies for such an obtuse post. In my haste while interleaving two tasks at once, I forgot to specify the ATI AT3000 series amp supports one to seven channels per chassis. So an AT3004 model had four channels and an AT3005 had five channels.
 
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Saturn94

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ATI is another company like that. I had a channel fail on my AT3005 amplifier. A bad cap, naturally. The amp was technically out of warranty, and they just had me send them the bad channel board, and they repaired it and sent it back. No charge. (Or sent me a new one, I'm not sure which.) No charge for shipping the board back to me either.
I had the same experience with Parasound (under their original ownership). One channel on my amp started distorting. Parasound sent a new amp module (easy to install myself) at no charge even though it was three years after the warranty expired.
 

phoenixdogfan

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I can't speak to what it's like to work for any of these companies, or their environmental footprint but I can talk about my experience with them.

SVS
Benchmark
Purifi
Aerial Acoustics
VPI
McIntosh
Sennheiser

I would like to include Kef because I think their speakers represent tremendous value of the money, but then I remember the fiasco they had with the Wireless speakers in terms of the software and also the ability to support the continued service of the electronics for those units.

Revel also deserves to be called out here as well. I've seen horror stories of people buying F208's and finding the company won't service them anymore. It's precisely because McIntosh continues to support and service everything they've ever made that they make my list.
 

dorakeg

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Ethical has many sides.
Decent wages to people it employs (costs money)
Genuine parts (costs money)
Environmental friendly (yes,also costs money)
After sales service,ease of service,good overall record (costs money)
Decent performance (doesn't necessarily costs,except we put durability too,then it costs money)

If after the above asking prices are decent I consider them ethical.

Decent is a rather difficult to measure. It's even more difficult in audio industry because it's niche and low in volume.

Ultimately, a company must make enough profits to survive. If they can't, they go bust. Despite the price of the equipment, manufacturers are not making that much money from it.

Say, there is an amplifier that cost $10,000, 40-60% goes to dealer. It's low volume item, if the margin isn't there, they aren't even interested to sell it. This is rather typical of electrical/electronics market too. Stuffs like your washing machine, fridge etc are all low volume items.

Assuming $5000 to dealer, out of that remaining $5000, you still need to




3-5%
I'm talking about audio companies that hyperbolize their product's ability to make a system sound better for a price that exceeds what gold costs per ounce--or whatever comparison you'd like to use.

I've always considered DECWARE a DIY who does business fare.
One the other end of the spectrum I'd put PS Audio or AudioQuest -- who seem to have no shame.

What are some ethical companies out there we should be supporting?

How do you define what is ethical or unethical?

1. As consumer, cheaper is better
2. As investor, higher ROI is better
3. As employee, higher salary is better
4. As CEO, higher profit is better
5. As dealer, higher margin/more sales is better.
6. Employee working for dealer, higher salary/commission is better.

Now look at this:

1. Cheaper price, good for customer, bad for dealer/manufacturer since profit margins affected.
2. Lower margins could mean lower ROI, bad for investor.
3. Lower profits means lesser salary and bonus for employee. Worse may lose job if business really poor.
4. Lower profits means CEO needs to answer to investors, board of directors. May also mean cost cutting measures needed. Eg. Salary cut, retrenchment etc.. bad for employees. Worst of all, company go bust and all jobless...
5. Dealer has to pay rental for shop space, salary for workers. So margin and sales matters.
6. Workers all need salary to feed family. Same as no.3

Give you a few scenarios:

1. I am customer. This xxx company sucks, unethical. Overpriced!! Its daylight robbery!! Should go bust!!

2. I am employee. This xxx company gives me good salary, good benefits and really care for employees. Great company!!

3. I am ceo. This xxx company is having way too little profit. Investors are not getting the returns. Operational cost is too high. I need to cut people and benefits etc to reduce cost.

4. I am the investor for xxx company. I invested millions into it but I am not getting the returns I am supposed to get.. time to fire the CEO!!

5. I am dealer. This xxx company is good. They are giving me good margins for their products. So I will continue to sell their products.

6. I am working for my boss in abc hifi shop. The boss sucks. He is giving me way too little salary and my working hours too long. He told us we are not earning enough. We are giving discounts and providing free delivery and installation is eating up our profits. Customer like it? Sure! But it's costing us.

My purpose is to show that we are in a inter-related world where what others do will affect us indirectly and vice versa. Depending on whose shoes you are in, you will see things differently. Every industry has its own list of "unethical" companies, but employees in these companies are still getting paid and able to feed their families. I am sure there will be some who treat employees well too.

Btw, I am not in audio industry (in case you are wondering).
 
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blueone

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Revel also deserves to be called out here as well. I've seen horror stories of people buying F208's and finding the company won't service them anymore.
I read those stories about the Salon1s, which was a very expensive speaker when it was in production. Even for the Salon2, which I'm glad is still in production, I've read that replacements parts are eye-rolling expensive.
 

restorer-john

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I read those stories about the Salon1s, which was a very expensive speaker when it was in production. Even for the Salon2, which I'm glad is still in production, I've read that replacements parts are eye-rolling expensive.

It really shouldn't be like that and I don't know why Revel/Harman/Samsung thinks its a clever idea to screw over their customers when they need help, especially after only a decade or so. To me, it makes no sense, especially for statement, excellent products. The opposite is what wins you customers, makes loyal ones and spreads good publicity.

A pair of Salon 2s should realistically have a 15 year warranty with spare parts available during that time on a warranty replacement with returned faulty driver basis, and rejected warranty purchases at a nominal cost+ freight. Not some giant profit centre at the expense of the poor customer.

That said, plenty of Japanese high end, cost no object speakers suffered from the same spare parts issues prematurely. That said, I had some wonderful experiences getting hold of drivers direct from Japan back in the day. Yamaha for instance, never screwed over a customer- even if they had caused the problem, on their top models. But that was decades ago now- the world is a different place.
 
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