Who is using a Preamp?

[Kr2d2]

Moin! (As we say in the North of Germany)

I have two usecases in my (pre-ASR) systems:

For my main system, I have a Lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp, because I like(d) the Roomperfect DSP by Lyngdorf so much. At the time whenI bought it, it was SOTA, just amazing for me! The DPA-1 feeds an Octave RE 280 tube power amp, which feeds my beloved Fischer & Fischer SN 450.

And then there is my big faible for old, historic HiFi stuff:
For my maybe even more beloved QUAD ESL 57 I have two alternative sets of pre- and power-amps: a QUAD 34 -> 2 QUAD II Monos, and a QUAD 33 -> QUAD 303 sets. Because the QUAD 33 becomes more and more unreliable, I recently bought a Meier Audio DACCORD FF DAC with preamplifier functionality (ie volume control) for digital sources, as you can see on the picture (black box on top of the QUAD 34, the QUAD 303 is hidden behind the speaker).

 

[Moti]

ML 38 built quality and measurements are top. Output impedance is about 20ohm so it drives all power amps. You feel the money spend on it. It has also managed well in blind listening tests back in days. I would not sell it if already can be found from your set up.

 

[olds1959special]

I was using a Topping A70 Pro as a preamp but got better sound from going straight from DAC and using that to control volume (which has a remote too.)

 

[BeeKay]

I was using a Topping A70 Pro as a preamp but got better sound from going straight from DAC and using that to control volume (which has a remote too.)

How?

Given the measurements I’d say it’s impossible to tell one from the other config. Level matched and blind.

 

[olds1959special]

How?

Given the measurements I’d say it’s impossible to tell one from the other config. Level matched and blind.

I felt like the Topping pre amp was adding a little gain, even in low gain mode, and I didn’t like the change in sound.

 

[DSJR]

Moin! (As we say in the North of Germany)

I have two usecases in my (pre-ASR) systems:

For my main system, I have a Lyngdorf DPA-1 preamp, because I like(d) the Roomperfect DSP by Lyngdorf so much. At the time whenI bought it, it was SOTA, just amazing for me! The DPA-1 feeds an Octave RE 280 tube power amp, which feeds my beloved Fischer & Fischer SN 450.

And then there is my big faible for old, historic HiFi stuff:
For my maybe even more beloved QUAD ESL 57 I have two alternative sets of pre- and power-amps: a QUAD 34 -> 2 QUAD II Monos, and a QUAD 33 -> QUAD 303 sets. Because the QUAD 33 becomes more and more unreliable, I recently bought a Meier Audio DACCORD FF DAC with preamplifier functionality (ie volume control) for digital sources, as you can see on the picture (black box on top of the QUAD 34, the QUAD 303 is hidden behind the speaker).
View attachment 493190

I would love to put my Quad stuff out on display, but no room to do it and herself hates audio gear in any case. I have a lovely fully serviced 33/FM3/303 set and would love the teak sleeve for pre and tuner. I'm also custodian of a set of rebuilt II power amps and get them out every ten years or so to make sure they still work

I'm becoming increasingly tempted by the late dark-grey issue 44 preamp which at the end of its production life in the mid 80s, I felt 'sounded' a little clearer than earlier versions. they fetch a pretty penny though these days, but like the other units I have, could easily be thought of as a kind-of investment...

 

[ChefBrunch]

Its pretty sad the current state of Preamps available unless you go higher end..The preamp really makes the sound for the whole system much like a phono preamp is actually the key to great vinyl play back system..

Even the basic controls on a preamp are disappearing , the audio world has gone the way of one size fits all over offering people classic design and preferences to control things....I long for a classic preamp with basic tone controls and dare I say loudness...all analog....balance,low,mid,high....half a dozen inputs and outputs, a record out. a tape loop....and made in a modern up to date platform.

the only decent configuration for a classic preamp is the Yamaha C5000 , nothing else comes close . its perfect.

I'm also on the hunt for a new preamp, SPL elector is a good potential but lacks many key features or even the phonitor.

wish NAD made a modern version of the analog 165 c bee preamp.....they went all digital nonsense.

 

[egellings]

I home-brewed my own minimalist vacuum tube preamp that has only what I use on it--volume, balance, input selector, on/off switch and a power indicator light to tell me if it's on or off.

 

[EJ3]

Its pretty sad the current state of Preamps available unless you go higher end..The preamp really makes the sound for the whole system much like a phono preamp is actually the key to great vinyl play back system..

Even the basic controls on a preamp are disappearing , the audio world has gone the way of one size fits all over offering people classic design and preferences to control things....I long for a classic preamp with basic tone controls and dare I say loudness...all analog....balance,low,mid,high....half a dozen inputs and outputs, a record out. a tape loop....and made in a modern up to date platform.

the only decent configuration for a classic preamp is the Yamaha C5000 , nothing else comes close . its perfect.

I'm also on the hunt for a new preamp, SPL elector is a good potential but lacks many key features or even the phonitor.

wish NAD made a modern version of the analog 165 c bee preamp.....they went all digital nonsense.

You mean something like my 2 APT/Holman Preamps? (one of mine tested here [the issues noted have been adjusted/fixed]):
[IMG alt="amirm"]https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/data/avatars/m/0/2.jpg?1477370459[/IMG]

amirm​

Founder/Admin​

Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
JoinedFeb 13, 2016 Messages48,881Likes286,981LocationSeattle Area

• Nov 21, 2021

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Apt Holman vintage preamplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and has been refurbished by QuirkAudio.

The look is a cross between hifi and pro gear:

Other than some scratches on top, the unit is a very good cosmetic shape. Rear connections are extensive:

Yes, there was a time we had outlets in the back of stereos. The more there was, the higher end the gear was said to be! Wonder what led to their demise.

In case you are wondering as I did when I was first contacted about this unit, Holman is Tomlinson Holman or the T in THX (now works for Apple). Owner sent me the service manual which is not only extensive but has excellent tutorials on the design, instruments to test it with, and pages and pages of detail. It is incredible what used to be available compared to now.

Apt Holman Measurements
Let's start with our dashboard input. I selected Tape 1 as input but oddly front panel selector doesn't have Tape 1. I set it to Aux 1 and then pushed Tape 1 switch:

Wow, this is excellent! I expected SINAD in 60s or 70s and here we have 90 dB. It is dominated by second harmonic at that level. Even more impressive is the signal to noise ratio with same unity gain:

Frequency response was dead flat in audible band:

Crosstalk is better than many devices I test today:

There is essentially no frequency dependency in distortion+noise:

Output level is optimized for about 0.4 volts or so:

So you may want to pair it with a power amplifier that puts out most of its power at the above level.

Apt Holman Preamplifier Phono Stage Measurements
I adjusted the volume control to give a nominal 40 dB level (higher than preamp tests):

While I like to see no visible distortion spikes in this test, its level at -100 dB is still very good. SINAD is set by the slight amount of mains noise which I could not get rid of with various grounding methods (typical).

RIAA equalization is very good but there seems to be a high frequency resonance that causes error above 10 kHz:

I did not look to see if there is an adjustment/compensation for this in the service manual.

Be sure to use the balance control to restore equal level in both channels.

Level of headroom is good:

And doesn't change a lot due to frequency:

Conclusions
The owner who sent me this has a knack for finding these past jewels with excellent engineering. Their performance post refurbishing is extreme good even by today's standard which sadly has sled backward. Hopefully no one sheds a tear next time I complain about an audio product producing SINAD of 70 dB and such which this level of performance was achieved years ago.

I am happy to recommend the Apt Holman preamplifier. I see one on ebay for $550 although it will likely need thorough service like the sample I tested.


----------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

 

[ChefBrunch]

That's a pretty cool piece. Not really into vintage equipment though. I like vintage equipment. But don’t really buy it. I live too remote from services. I buy new and get the 20 years out of them before they need services.

 

[EJ3]

That's a pretty cool piece. Not really into vintage equipment though. I like vintage equipment. But don’t really buy it. I live too remote from services. I buy new and get the 20 years out of them before they need services.

I bought these new in 1977-78.

I just figured that it was time to go through them (at that time).
Then fixed the issues that Amirm found that Peter & I had not thought to test for.
So: one owner (me) and refurbished/updated.

 

[julius_the_cat]

Belles 21A with powered speakers, a turntable and a streamer/NAS.

 

[Sjkrabbe]

I am using the PARASOUND P6 preamp and I am very happy about that A lot of input options - both analog and digital - just what is needed in multi-signal-setup
Very versatile and great sound. A lot of expansion possibilities.

 

[Gary_G]

I am using the PARASOUND P6 preamp and I am very happy about that A lot of input options - both analog and digital - just what is needed in multi-signal-setup
Very versatile and great sound. A lot of expansion possibilities.





View attachment 498103

I like my P6 as a control center.

 

[Bland_username42069]

I have great hopes for waxwing into technics g700 pre into surround processor into 4 channel densen power amp for 4 channel mono / stereo / quad but circumstances beyond my control mean it’s all boxed up at the minute.

 

[HalSF]

Its pretty sad the current state of Preamps available unless you go higher end..The preamp really makes the sound for the whole system much like a phono preamp is actually the key to great vinyl play back system..

Even the basic controls on a preamp are disappearing , the audio world has gone the way of one size fits all over offering people classic design and preferences to control things....I long for a classic preamp with basic tone controls and dare I say loudness...all analog....balance,low,mid,high....half a dozen inputs and outputs, a record out. a tape loop....and made in a modern up to date platform.

the only decent configuration for a classic preamp is the Yamaha C5000 , nothing else comes close . its perfect.

I'm also on the hunt for a new preamp, SPL elector is a good potential but lacks many key features or even the phonitor.

wish NAD made a modern version of the analog 165 c bee preamp.....they went all digital nonsense.

The Schiit Saga 2 preamp I recently added to my system doesn’t tick all the boxes on your vintage preamp wishlist, but for me it’s a brilliant preamp performer and an exceptional value ($279) available without going “high end. I love it.

 

[Scrutable]

I know this thread is a month old but I did want to comment.

Now with new IC amplifiers being so awesome I am hoping preamps can enter a new age of innovation also.

Until a few weeks ago, my main system was set up with sources from Bluetooth music (both streaming and stored) through a dongle, a Mac Mini music server through a USB dongle DAC, a CD player, and a vintage turntable. I also listen to FM more often than I thought I would. I was using an Adcom GTP-500. It had everything I wanted except Bluetooth, meaning multiple line inputs, a tuner, a remote control, and excellent specs and reviews. It also was very inexpensive on the used market. It served daily for 5 years but recently it lost a channel.

I found only one affordable product that is close to meeting these requirements: Emotiva's BasX PT-series. So I bought one, the entry level PT-1. It was only $379 on sale but it is audibly noiseless and all functions work extremely well. It replaces both dongles, and the remote has everything the Adcom's did except the antique guck in the contacts plus an internal power supply just like the old days!

There are two features where it is lacking: First, no ASR review. This only matters because I want to test my ears and the "good enough" nature of this device, and I doubt it would cause me to switch. The second is the 17" wide format. I am hoping to downsize and modernize my second system and go with all active speakers. A Topping-sized preamp would be ideal.

I do like the Topping above but it is really just a switch with volume. It needs external devices (with their own remotes!) for connections to everything else. The double size is not too bad though a single RCA-only box would be better for me. Aiyima's tube preamp is not bad but I would much rather a solid state version. (@AIYIMA how about it? )

 

[mcochris]

I have a LP player and a CD/DAC that outputs analog so I need a preamp. Enter the Yamaha C-5000. Built like a tank, weighing in at 42 lbs (19 kg):

 

[Platypus20]

I’m using Benchmark LA4s, in 3 of the systems in the house, very happy with them

 

[onethreetwowaitthatswrong]

Part of me want to go separate in order to replace a CXA61 that probably doesn't measure SOTA and is in the lower power limit area for their speakers, but preamps options are indeed so hard to find. And by that I don't mean dacs with preamp function where there's always a chance of blowing full volume as told on several threads here. On the not-too-expensive here's the Advance Paris PX1 that I've already mentioned on this site

[...] For example, there is a low-pass for sub, and a high-pass rca out, which seems an ideal combination, but also a full signal rca out, as well as XLR out. Sadly it is not measured, which would be very useful considering some of the eyebrow raising features like this one : The PX-1's interactive menu offers you two modes of use, "Class A" mode or discrete mode. The "Class A" output is based on a circuit based on bipolar transistors only, in a "double cascode" type assembly offering performance in terms of distortion gradient close to a tube assembly, therefore very homogeneous and polarized in Class A, the "discrete" output is a stage based on a more classic typology based on a differential stage JFET input and bipolar current mirror with a polarized output in class AB, more prone to distortion in odd harmonics sometimes less appreciated "at the ear", but sometimes also felt as more defined.

And on the negative side it also features an old wolfson dac, so very far from sota as well.

There's also, for a few days left, a huge bargain on the Elipson P1 preamp (promoted as fully made in france, 800€ instead of 2K) but not only has it not been measured anywhere, reviews and opinions on it are very very rare (there's literaly one (subjective one) on asr, and it was alongside the associated poweramp. Flirted with the idea of buying it alongside a NCORE NC122MP power amp and smth like a Topping E70 ('cause the dac "addon" for the elipson is sold separately for 700 bucks) for a full balanced trigger linked combo, but that's a lot of money for unguaranteed results...

And yet these are probably along the cheapest "new" options on today's market for an analog preamp... if you don't count things like the Fosi ZP3